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Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

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Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#171

Post by kingkawn »

0-_-0 wrote: post #134
kingkawn wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gift of ubi is society saying, “we are here to help you without compelling you to contribute in any specific way. But if you don’t contribute in some way, we may lose the ability to help people. here and now is your chance to choose for yourself how to keep the world afloat and vibrant. You have our support. We are looking forward to seeing how you choose to support the world in turn.”

I believe the "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" approach has already been tried many times over the world in the 20th century and failed every single time. As E. O. Wilson (a world leading expert in studying ants) said about communism/socialism: “Great Idea. Wrong Species.”

Those systems viciously enforced a centralized vision of what each person should do. This is not that, this is true autonomy.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#172

Post by kingkawn »

ams6110 wrote: post #119
kingkawn wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gift of ubi is society saying, “we are here to help you without compelling you to contribute in any specific way. But if you don’t contribute in some way, we may lose the ability to help people. here and now is your chance to choose for yourself how to keep the world afloat and vibrant. You have our support. We are looking forward to seeing how you choose to support the world in turn.”

Honestly I think about 5% of people will be motivated by that sentiment.

Probably more than the number of people who feel deeply motivated under the current setup.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#173

Post by mises »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #166
mises wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sizeable portion, maybe, but certainly not all (and probably not even most). Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do? Let alone pay them for?

"Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do?" You also ignored my first and more explained upon example, volunteering. Is there a reason for that?

Volunteering is one possibility. People are just going to replace their jobs with doing free work? If not, what else will they do? According to you, crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#174

Post by mises »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #166
mises wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sizeable portion, maybe, but certainly not all (and probably not even most). Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do? Let alone pay them for?

"Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do?" You also ignored my first and more explained upon example, volunteering. Is there a reason for that?

Volunteering is one possibility. People are just going to replace their jobs with doing free work entirely? If not, what else will they do? According to you, crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#175

Post by mises »

fxj wrote: post #150
engineerworks wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for an evil corporation which is harvesting data off gullible people who have no idea how their data is being used. If there was UBI, I'd have stopped working for them altogether.

And you could work on a startup and fight them. The world would be a better lace if we wouldn't have to be modern slaves.

Seriously? You're comparing a job you don't like to slavery?! Unless you have people who whip you if you run away, it's not, and it's pretty insensitive to compare it to that.

Show me the gun being pointed to your head to keep you in that job. Otherwise, shut up about slavery.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#176

Post by mises »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #167
b_tterc_p wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re basically saying that because it has ethical value it can’t make people lazy. That’s irrelevant. UBI might make people lazy. In fact, it would be pretty shocking if it didn’t make some % of the population choose to do nothing for their entire lives but stay at home and play video games. People like to point out that techies would feel more comfortable building start ups, and that’s probably true. But for peopl…

While it is certainly possible to give people enough money to become uninterested of working, one of the conclusions of the experiment is that the UBI version tested did not make people less efficient at seeking employment. UBI just made them happier. In other words, not implementing their UBI version is simply a way to punish unemployed people for not having a job. You can still argue that unemployed people should b…

> UBI... did not make people less efficient at seeking employment.

No, it didn't make them significantly lazier short term.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#177

Post by criley2 »

llcoolv wrote: post #45
criley2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you realize that automation is eating the jobs that these people used to do, and realize that the service economy can't fit even a fraction of these displaced workers, you have a scenario where we can produce goods for sale in mass with minimal labor but now less people have money to buy things. Creating a death spiral because consumers buying things is the fuel which makes the entire economy run and grow, so wh…

alright, then why it is not voluntary? the people who would want to share with others are free to do so. why use violence? why put in jail people who refuse to be robbed?

TL;DR: Anarchy is the system you're describing (total voluntary interaction with government, or no government) and there's plenty of anarchists around, and literally 0 successful anarchist states.

Let me approach your anarchy differently:

Why do we not have anarchy? Because not-anarchy is working and is the best system we've ever used.

Why don't we get rid of this to try anarchy? Well -- who's stopping you from creating your own Amish/Scientology/SoverignCitizen whatever lifestyle? Who's forcing you to live where you do? Is the tax man showing up at your door with guns drawn?

I think your contribution to our society is far more voluntary than you want to admit.

There are plenty of Americans who live 100-1000 miles away from a real government and largely never interact with it. Preppers in Alaska or in the wide expanses of the West.

Something tells me you choose not to live like they do, free from government regulation, not meaningfully paying taxes, etc, because you like the society and civilization that is built through Liberty (freedom with common sense restrictions) as opposed to Anarchy (freedom without restriction, period).

P.S. if you call taxation robbery but use public infrastructure, you're a completely entitled hypocrite who deserves no respect for your "I can take for free but how dare I have to pay" hottake. The only people who can criticize taxation are those who homestead far, far, far away from government and society, because they truly do not use any infrastructure or benefit, but, they largely do not pay taxation (and no government agency is going to Waco style attack to force them to, either).

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#178

Post by chrisco255 »

perfunctory wrote: post #103
chrisco255 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a UBI without massive taxation. Massive taxation increases the risk of doing business. The higher the risks, the less entrepreneurship a country will see.

> Massive taxation increases the risk of doing business I encourage you to make a list of countries ordered by taxation level, and another one ordered by the risk of doing business. And then compare the two.

If you're thinking that it's instructive to compare nations by tax rates in isolation, as if it's an "all things being equal" comparison I would challenge that on many levels.

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#179

Post by moorhosj »

ams6110 wrote: post #128
mises wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sizeable portion, maybe, but certainly not all (and probably not even most). Do you think crocheting, knitting, bingo, and dancing are honestly good things to put people to do? Let alone pay them for?

Exactly. Those are time killing activities to keep from staring out the window and losing your mind. Which is also a big problem for the elderly and unemployed.

Or, we could view them as “happiness activities”. In labor economics it is called leisure and the goal of people is to optimize between income and leisure.

I know lots of employed people who spend their days “staring out the window losing their mind”. It seems we have over optimized in the wrong direction (towards work and away from leisure).

Re: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Shows Recipients Are Happier and More Secure

#180

Post by moorhosj »

b_tterc_p wrote: post #133
fxj wrote: post #65

A big problem about the basic income is that it is perceived as money that you get for nothing and so people don't have to work and therefore they are lazy. Let me give you an analogy: Imagine that breathing air would cost money and you would have to work in order to breathe. Unless you don't work you would die. Would then a basic income be something that makes you lazy or would it be something that gives you confide…

You’re basically saying that because it has ethical value it can’t make people lazy. That’s irrelevant. UBI might make people lazy. In fact, it would be pretty shocking if it didn’t make some % of the population choose to do nothing for their entire lives but stay at home and play video games. People like to point out that techies would feel more comfortable building start ups, and that’s probably true. But for peopl…

Under UBI, the people with low skills would have the means to upgrade those skills.
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