I haven't read the paper yet, but this idea shouldn't be terribly surprising. Augustine of Hippo did a pretty thorough analysis at least of the Greco-Roman gods in the early 400s and wrote about how pagan gods generally aren't moralizing, and how the punishments or favors they give often have little to do with how moral a particular person is and the behavior of the Greco-Roman gods is also not an example worth following. One of the arguments that he and others made in favor of Christianity is that in our faith, the religious and moral come together, and that this was a mostly novel concept at the time.
Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
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Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#32Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
The hypothesis is completely implausible, and it is quite irritating that it keeps popping up in discussions in the 'hacker' sphere.
There is simply no way that bicameralism would be the dominant phenotype only a few thousand years ago, and be completely absent in any present-day population, anywhere. We would still see it in isolated populations.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#33Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
So everybody used to be schizophrenic? I know the bad connotations of schizophrenia are more present in modern societies, but still, I can't see how a primitive group of schizophrenics would be able to thrive. Is there any proof or actual need for this bicameral mind other than trying to explain the religious phenomenon?
Who says we're not "schizophrenic" now? Our common parlance attributes agency to blind chaotic forces in the universe; our visual systems are quasi-hallucinogenic in their mechanisms (making all sorts of "optical illusion" mistakes); and while we like to think we're singular, holistically consistent beings, our actual behavior is often better described by nested (and competitive) sub-agent neuron clusters: https://meltingasphalt.com/neurons-gone-wild/
It's worth considering that Jaynes' argument has as much to do with language as religion, positing a tightly coupled relationship between (spoken) language and subjective consciousness/qualia. "Gods" were in part an explanatory mechanism for the same phenomena of consciousness and (feeling of) decision-making that we experience today, which we now explain via "Self" narratives. In other words: rainbows, and our experience of them, did not fundamentally change, only our social stories about rainbows (God's Covenant -> Light Refraction).
Assuming one accepts a relationship between consciousness and language, it's also worth considering that language is a socially viral phenomenon, and so it makes sense that we might externalize consciousness explanations into a social space, via the common knowledge of our community's tribal gods, or a shared animist experience of nature. The innovation of the Self is a relatively recent one in this model; and even then, each of us frequently make the mistake of modeling other Selves after our own Self (the only god the secular world honors), resulting in biases like the Curse of Knowledge.
At any rate, Jaynes' argument is quite detailed and thorough, and difficult to make concisely. I found "Origins of Consciousness" to be a thought-provoking read, but I'm still not sure I'm willing to stake a strong claim For or Against the model.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#34Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
The hypothesis is completely implausible, and it is quite irritating that it keeps popping up in discussions in the 'hacker' sphere. There is simply no way that bicameralism would be the dominant phenotype only a few thousand years ago, and be completely absent in any present-day population, anywhere. We would still see it in isolated populations.
But there are people now that hear voices...
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
As Dawkins wrote in The God Delusion , "It is one of those books that is either complete rubbish or a work of consummate genius, nothing in between! Probably the former, but I'm hedging my bets."
I'm really surprised that he and Dennet are so positive on the idea. In the humans running around today we can do experiments on we can clearly see that it's the same process that allows us to serialize experiences for to speak about them and serialize them to remember them. But I suppose before fMRI that work might not have been as convincing. And I suppose, as someone who does a lot of thinking without an internal…
>And I suppose, as someone who does a lot of thinking without an internal narrative I feel a bit attacked by the whole idea.
When ideas like this and Sapir-Whorf pop up it really makes me wonder if maybe the social "sciences" are studied exclusively by some subset of the population that thinks entirely different from me. How else would they come to the conclusion that thoughts take the form of articulated monologues? Maybe I'm the outlier but it takes deliberate effort for me to serialize my thoughts into anything articulate. I mean do other people just hear "I didn't give the correct arguments to this function" in their head when they code?
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#36I haven't read the paper yet, but this idea shouldn't be terribly surprising. Augustine of Hippo did a pretty thorough analysis at least of the Greco-Roman gods in the early 400s and wrote about how pagan gods generally aren't moralizing, and how the punishments or favors they give often have little to do with how moral a particular person is and the behavior of the Greco-Roman gods is also not an example worth follo…
Greco-Roman gods absolutely punished immoral behavior. It's just that "what is moral" has changed a lot over time. For example, the classical Greek period was a time when pederasty and war were considered perfectly moral. It's often pointed out that pre-Christian morality seems to differ considerably from post-Christian morality.
Also, Ancient Greece/Rome definitely count as "complex societites".
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#37It's important to take this with a grain of salt. Looking at the fit of the model itself, it seems to be a bit overconfident/overfit to the current configuration of society: https://twitter.com/babeheim/status/1108737930804293632
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Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#38Most Eastern belief systems don't have moralizing gods. So, there are multiple ways how societies can virtualize authority.
This is correct. However, these belief systems do have a concept of good and bad karma. It may be thought of as an authority that is not personified.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm really surprised that he and Dennet are so positive on the idea. In the humans running around today we can do experiments on we can clearly see that it's the same process that allows us to serialize experiences for to speak about them and serialize them to remember them. But I suppose before fMRI that work might not have been as convincing. And I suppose, as someone who does a lot of thinking without an internal…
>And I suppose, as someone who does a lot of thinking without an internal narrative I feel a bit attacked by the whole idea. When ideas like this and Sapir-Whorf pop up it really makes me wonder if maybe the social "sciences" are studied exclusively by some subset of the population that thinks entirely different from me. How else would they come to the conclusion that thoughts take the form of articulated monologues?…
I doubt they do, but have you never had a sort of "heart-to-heart with yourself"? I'll sometimes take a walk with the explicit intention of having a good think, and whenever I do that, my thoughts absolutely take the form of internal monologue. I think if you're really thinking something through, on a subject you haven't really explored, the 'voice' manifests. Just my .02.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#40Why is it not self evident that cooperation is driven by self interested paired with intelligence? Animal A sees animal B in its territory. This tends to result in an immediate battle where both animals expose themselves to risk of death. Higher intelligence would instead tell you 'hey if I cooperate with this guy, not only can we both keep all this land - but we can go take over the land owned by animal C'. There's…
> When social order collapses, for instance due to a natural disaster, we turn to some pretty nasty behavior quite quickly even when it's in no way necessary.
Only in misanthropist fiction and television shows. When social order collapses in real life previously equal people organize, cooperate, and protect the weak.
That being said, if there's some extreme social stratification in the group already, and there was previously a wider authority explicitly restraining the more powerful group from completely enslaving the weak group, of course that would change if the wider authority were eliminated.
During the flooding of New Orleans, the footage exemplifying "nasty behavior" broadcast on television were generally starving people looting grocery stores, cold, wet people foraging for clothing, blankets and bedding, or at the worst (and rarest) impoverished people looking for things they might be able to sell. The really scary thing was how police, both alone and as hastily-assembled white citizens' councils, started looting the town and threatening and killing flood survivors with impunity, and how the media cheered them on with a narrative of "nasty behavior."
Almost the entire source of nasty behavior in the case of that disaster was from people who were completely secure - the New Orleans police, police in nearby towns, and the national media.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_i...
> Civil disturbances in post-Hurricane Katrina were consistent with all existing research on disaster sociology, which concludes that “[post-disaster] widespread looting [is] a myth”,[51] and were vastly overstated by the media, ultimately fueling a climate of suspicion and paranoia which greatly hampered rescue efforts and further worsened the conditions of the survivors.[52]
> Some initial reports of mass chaos, particularly in stories about the Superdome, were later found to be exaggerated or rumor.[53] In the Superdome for example, the New Orleans sex crimes unit investigated every report of rape or atrocity and found only two verifiable incidents, both of sexual assault. The department head told reporters, "I think it was an urban myth. Any time you put 25,000 people under one roof, with no running water, no electricity and no information, stories get told." Based on these reports, government officials expected hundreds of dead to be found in the Superdome, but instead found only six dead: four natural deaths, one drug overdose, and one suicide.[43][54] In a case of reported sniper fire, the "sniper" turned out to be the relief valve of a gas tank popping every few minutes.[53]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Henry_Glover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna,_Louisiana#Hurricane_Ka...