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Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

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Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#11

Post by pavel_lishin »

richardhod wrote: post #9
didgeoridoo wrote: post #4

Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…

This is an idea which has been popularized by the new TV series Westworld. It is interesting, however it is not the topic of this paper, which does look instead into sociological perspectives rather than an internal psychological theory which is difficult to be approved. Jaynes' theory may have merit, but it isn't that relevant to this paper, which is an empirical research paper on social data and theories.

I've been skipping Westworld, but the fact that bicameralism plays a plot point is going to pop it to near the top of my queue now.

Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#13

Post by AlwaysRock »

raducu wrote: post #8
didgeoridoo wrote: post #4

Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…

So everybody used to be schizophrenic? I know the bad connotations of schizophrenia are more present in modern societies, but still, I can't see how a primitive group of schizophrenics would be able to thrive. Is there any proof or actual need for this bicameral mind other than trying to explain the religious phenomenon?

I understood it to be less like schizophrenia and more like early peoples who were not aware of their internal monologue. Their own thoughts were perceived as the command or voice of Gods because how else would they be able to, "hear" words that were not said by another around them?

Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#15

Post by whatshisface »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #13
raducu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So everybody used to be schizophrenic? I know the bad connotations of schizophrenia are more present in modern societies, but still, I can't see how a primitive group of schizophrenics would be able to thrive. Is there any proof or actual need for this bicameral mind other than trying to explain the religious phenomenon?

I understood it to be less like schizophrenia and more like early peoples who were not aware of their internal monologue. Their own thoughts were perceived as the command or voice of Gods because how else would they be able to, "hear" words that were not said by another around them?

It's beyond me how you could ever show evidence for that, beyond reading between the lines of ancient text (which we know is one of the least reliable forms of historical evidence ever invented).

Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#17

Post by jerf »

josquindesprez wrote: post #14

It's important to take this with a grain of salt. Looking at the fit of the model itself, it seems to be a bit overconfident/overfit to the current configuration of society: https://twitter.com/babeheim/status/1108737930804293632

That seems a pretty devastating critique. The model is so confident it takes hardly any concrete data points that don't match to disprove it. (Note I'm speaking math in that sentence, not English.)

Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#18

Post by Symmetry »

devoply wrote: post #6
didgeoridoo wrote: post #4

Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)#Issu...

Huh, published in 1976. Somehow I'd assumed that this sort of hypothesis would have been proposed back in the 1930s when it's assumptions would have been a lot more credible.

Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history

#19

Post by classicsnoot »

I haven't read the paper yet, but the headline/summary keeps getting bandied about reddit, imgur, facebook, and twitter.

The implication seems to be that because complex society formed without complex religion(s), said religions are superfluous and maybe even unnecessary or deleterious to said society. I may be reading the implication incorrectly.

If I am not, then I'm quite puzzled by this line of inference. If complex society formed prior to complex religion, and the only complex societies still around* today hold, or used to hold until very recently, a complex religion as a core element of societal identity, would the implication be that complex religion is an evolved trait of successful complex societies?

*Around of their own volition, not relegated to reservation regions or whose cultural pelt is being worn by its vanquisher.

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