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Vietnam’s Empty Forests

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Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#61
post #60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be able to afford to buy trash bags if you want to keep your trash from being in "a pile" and then what do you do with all these bags of trash? If your whole community is too poor to afford a garbage truck then who is coming 'round to pick up the garbage? Of course poor people in underserved communities could just haul their own trash to the "local pile", but who has time to do that when you're working to…

Your post to me is quite strange because it describes a problem that has a certain floor on poverty, but then claims those being spoken about live below that floor. If you have plastic bottles, cans, and etc. you are not so poor as to be unable to manage your waste. The hyper impoverished people you describe, subsistence farmers, have compost, not non-biodegradable and unburnable waste.

I've never been to Vietnam and I wasn't attempting to describe any specific people. I was just addressing the idea that being poor is not a condition that might raise the bar for disposing of one's trash "properly" (or, for that matter, doing almost anything else). Where I live I spend $52 a month to have my trash picked up (and it just went up to $54). I can totally imagine a person or family who can afford to buy some things made of plastic (pretty much one of the cheapest materials in the world) but who would still be strained by an extra $50 obligation. Or people who can afford plastic but still live in a community that cannot afford to offer this service. I've seen photos of people living in mud and straw huts without windows or running water wearing Nikes so I suspect access to industrialized waste might be more accessible than you think.

And I'm not saying even the poorest individual can't handle their own waste, I'm just positing that the effort required to do so is inversely correlated with income.

If anything I'd prefer if people were more careless with their trash in the "nice" places since this is where most of the people responsible for designing and producing this stuff tend to live and under our current arrangement these minds are somewhat insulated from the actual impact of producing long-lived objects of marginal utility.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Costa Rica is also a notable exception. People there are obsessed with keeping stuff clean and protecting wildlife, because I think they understand how much their livelihood depends on tourism. It’s a huge difference between Costa Rica and Nicaragua, even though culturally the countries are very similar otherwise.

They burn trash and toilet paper in the ditch beside the road in Guanacaste. To be fair, the roads aren't paved, and there are no gas stations or infrastructure. Yes, ecotourism is big in Costa Rica, but they aren't perfect either. Maybe only in the touristy areas....

I have to admit that I didn’t get to far out into the country but even “touristy” parts of other Central American countries are full of garbage — the beaches and everything.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#63
post #61
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post to me is quite strange because it describes a problem that has a certain floor on poverty, but then claims those being spoken about live below that floor. If you have plastic bottles, cans, and etc. you are not so poor as to be unable to manage your waste. The hyper impoverished people you describe, subsistence farmers, have compost, not non-biodegradable and unburnable waste.

I've never been to Vietnam and I wasn't attempting to describe any specific people. I was just addressing the idea that being poor is not a condition that might raise the bar for disposing of one's trash "properly" (or, for that matter, doing almost anything else). Where I live I spend $52 a month to have my trash picked up (and it just went up to $54). I can totally imagine a person or family who can afford to buy s…

I get where you're coming from, but it wouldn't be $50/mo. These costs adjust with the cost of labor and land and so on. In the US the median household income is around $60,000/year. People pay ~$600/year for trash collection, or about 1% of the median income. In Vietnam, for example, the average annual income is in the area of $5,000/year (more in cities like Hanoi and HCMC, less in rural areas.) 1% of $5,000/year would be about $50/year, or $4-5/mo. People who are buying products that have the kind of waste byproducts that end up as litter will be able to afford paying an extra $5/month.

I'll ask my friend what they pay for trash pickup. I'm sure there must be something because they didn't have huge piles of trash around their home.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Viet, born and raised. My country is blessed with incredible scenery, diverse and natural. The coast line is as long as the country itself ffs. Now I won't claim that I'm an avid traveler, but from my limited traveling experience (only been to Australia, Korea, Japan and Hongkong on vacation, nothing too fancy), I have never been to a place that I would rank higher in terms of beautiful, natural scenery. Howeve…

How big is social media there? The #trashtag trend is really awesome, and would be good to get going. It's using people's desire for attention to do some clean up.

Social media, mainly facebook, is absolutely huge over here. I have seen a few popular local #trashtag pictures circling around. We generally catch up with internet trends pretty quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if it made national TV. It's awesome but unfortunately I don't think it would help much in the long run.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western tourist also immediately notice it when they come to SE Asia. It's a pity that this is such a strong memory. As a Vietnamese local, why do you think the plastic pollution is so widespread here? Sure, everything is packed in plastics, but so is in Japan. Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach? Or is most of it coming from the sea?…

I can think of a few reasons: - Convenience & economic: one kg of nylon bag costs around 2$, 20~40 times cheaper than biodegradable plastic, and nylon bag are taxed at more than 100%. - Local market are full of farmers selling their fresh vegetables, poultry or pork. So when I go buy food for my dinner I come back with 3~5 bags, with each ingredients having their own bag. While a visit to supermarket often result in…

How do you keep your meat and vegetables in a single bag? It's not impossible to reject bags in the local markets - I do that all the time. But on my travels around SEA but specially Vietnam, I feel tired and hopeless. I saw a lady from a toy shop throw a few batteries away to the curb without giving it a thought.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Viet, born and raised. My country is blessed with incredible scenery, diverse and natural. The coast line is as long as the country itself ffs. Now I won't claim that I'm an avid traveler, but from my limited traveling experience (only been to Australia, Korea, Japan and Hongkong on vacation, nothing too fancy), I have never been to a place that I would rank higher in terms of beautiful, natural scenery. Howeve…

Western tourist also immediately notice it when they come to SE Asia. It's a pity that this is such a strong memory. As a Vietnamese local, why do you think the plastic pollution is so widespread here? Sure, everything is packed in plastics, but so is in Japan. Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach? Or is most of it coming from the sea?…

> Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach?

I think there are two main reasons. First, many people don't have environmental awareness. They weren't taught. That's not to blame them, but it's just a fact. However the new generations are indeed educated on that subject. We were taught to not litter, to pick up the trash, etc. But this is where the second issue lies: when we don't follow the rules, nothing happens. No immediate consequences. Whereas in other developed countries, when people break the rules, they get fined, they get other people looking at them funny. That collective awareness helps enforce the simple rules.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#67
post #2

Vietnam is a stunningly beautiful country but unfortunately a love of nature doesn't seem to have really taken hold there. At least not yet. Missing from all the gorgeous photos of Mekong Delta waterways and pristine beaches is all the trash you'll find strewn in heaps everywhere. My guess is it will take another generation for people there to appreciate how blessed they are to live in such surroundings but by then i…

I'm a Viet, born and raised. My country is blessed with incredible scenery, diverse and natural. The coast line is as long as the country itself ffs. Now I won't claim that I'm an avid traveler, but from my limited traveling experience (only been to Australia, Korea, Japan and Hongkong on vacation, nothing too fancy), I have never been to a place that I would rank higher in terms of beautiful, natural scenery. Howeve…

As an American-born Vietnamese person, I'll provide context for other Western readers:

There is no real US substitute I can think of for experiencing living in Vietnam.

I grew up in NoVA, and would go on month-long summer trips to Vietnam with my family to visit relatives. My asian friends from China, India, and the Philippines would go on similar trips with their families too, so we would share stories and commiserate with each other. We joked with the Korean kids how they had it easy, and would tell the White kids how it's like the opposite of 'vacation'.

Living outside Hanoi with my relatives and seeing day-to-day life in Vietnam made me thankful for my Western lifestyle. I was used to the typical US suburban cushiness, and this was like bootcamp: no A/C, no American toilets (only squat ones), less reliable internet, widely varying food standards (having diarrhea in Florida-like weather is awful), and commonplace dirtiness and pollution (imagine NYC before the EPA but more widespread).

Even for me, there would be moments of culture shock seeing street food vendors selling field rats or shop owners dumping loose garbage into alleys. Things you would be shocked to see happen in the US without immediate reprimand and regulation are "just a part of life" in Vietnam. There is a huge cultural disconnect to hurdle between practices that are acceptable in Vietnam vs. the US.

Finally, there is the topic of education. For those asians who came from rural lifestyles not very long ago, education was not widely accessible or particularly advanced (e.g. college-level subject study), thus, many people did not grow up receiving the same learnings. This is where folk beliefs come in and fill the void (i.e. the "old wives tale" equivalent). It's information based on tertiary cause-effect understanding, or explanation derived from non-scientific study. For example, a handful of my older relatives believe that rains causes lice (as in lice spontaneously generate from rain), therefore, keeping your head dry in the rain prevents lice. This is something that could be easily discredited if there was effort put into convincing them otherwise or letting them discover it's not true.

It's really an incredible shame that ignorance, unawareness, and fallaciousness have lead to such a tragedy of animals and environments being destroyed. Vietnam needs more figures to go out into the public and address ass-backwards thinking like drinking bile or eating horns will cure ailments. It's certainly as dumb or dumber than anti-vax stories. Modern medicine is already a solution to many of these "folk cures", with greater efficacy and less harm, yet it's ignored in favor of some random concoction because that's the "traditional way". It makes as much sense as hanging herbs in my doorway to ward off the flu over getting a flu shot.

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