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No one should have to travel in fear

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Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#71

Post by maximilianroos »

cobbzilla wrote: post #5

It's horrible but the case-law seems fairly well settled; various courts have ruled that lots of searches that would otherwise violate the 4th Amendment are totally permissible for CBP agents within 100 miles of the border and at customs checkpoints within international airports. I'd love to be surprised if there is a legitimate case here.

This slightly confuses a few issues:

- Under Martinez-Fuerte, CBP can briefly question anyone at a checkpoint within 100 miles of the US border to ascertain their citizenship. The only privilege over usual reasonable suspicion / probable cause searches is to ascertain citizenship (so searching your glove compartment or your pockets isn't granted).

- There's a border search exception _passing through the border_, which allows for CBP to search you & your possessions, with _no_ requirement for reasonable suspicion nor a warrant.

- Under Cotterman, the border search exception does _not_ extend to forensic examination of your devices. The agents need reasonable suspicion or a warrant or consent.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#72

Post by throwawaystale »

geofft wrote: post #61
throwawaystale wrote: post #38

He's saying he was targeted because he's known to disapprove of the Trump administration? Please. If anything, it was considerably worse prior to 2016. A better question would be why someone technically knowledgeable would be carrying a laptop through airline security at all. As soon as it's out of your hands, you have to assume it's been blown, security-wise. Far better to just buy a burner Chromebook at your destin…

Taking a laptop through airport security as a carry-on doesn't involve letting it out of your hands. (I assume they do not hire hobbits to hide inside the X-ray machine and implant hardware on your motherboard.)

Let's just say I have a lot or respect for the possibilities I'm aware of, together with a general sense that there's a lot that I don't know.

In any case, just because you usually get your laptop handed right back, it doesn't follow that you always will. If it matters to you, buy that burner.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#73

Post by telesilla »

You're not alone. I've cut my U.S. travel significantly in the last years due to what I've experienced as hostile border agents for reasons I could never quite figure out but probably related to my nomadic lifestyle. I'm not a U.S. citizen but I do come from a "friendly" nation and it's shameful some of the things that have been said to me in an effort to catch me out in a lie that didn't exist.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#74

Post by avarun »

geofft wrote: post #52
zachberger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to pay to bypass the lines. The free "Mobile Passport" app allows you to go into a line is almost as quick as Global Entry.

Global Entry gets you two things: a faster line when you re-enter the US, and membership in TSA Pre-Check. For me, Pre-Check is far more useful, because most of my travel is domestic (and it also helps you on the outbound portion of international travel).

Precheck alone is $15 cheaper.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#75

Post by geofft »

throwawaystale wrote: post #72
geofft wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a laptop through airport security as a carry-on doesn't involve letting it out of your hands. (I assume they do not hire hobbits to hide inside the X-ray machine and implant hardware on your motherboard.)

Let's just say I have a lot or respect for the possibilities I'm aware of, together with a general sense that there's a lot that I don't know. In any case, just because you usually get your laptop handed right back, it doesn't follow that you always will. If it matters to you, buy that burner.

Even so:

1. I can expect that there's a chance that my laptop will be taken from me (and perhaps returned modified or perhaps taken permanently) while still not being okay with that. It's one thing to expect a right to be violated; it's another thing to give up.

2. It's not unreasonable to travel with a laptop while expecting a small chance that it's taken, in which case you'll buy a new one and restore from backup, instead of buying a burner every time.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#76

Post by geofft »

maximilianroos wrote: post #71
cobbzilla wrote: post #5

It's horrible but the case-law seems fairly well settled; various courts have ruled that lots of searches that would otherwise violate the 4th Amendment are totally permissible for CBP agents within 100 miles of the border and at customs checkpoints within international airports. I'd love to be surprised if there is a legitimate case here.

This slightly confuses a few issues: - Under Martinez-Fuerte, CBP can briefly question anyone at a checkpoint within 100 miles of the US border to ascertain their citizenship. The only privilege over usual reasonable suspicion / probable cause searches is to ascertain citizenship (so searching your glove compartment or your pockets isn't granted). - There's a border search exception _passing through the border_, whic…

Thanks. I was going to say—I expect (as a citizen) that within 100 miles of the border I can be searched without a warrant by CBP and be detained if I refuse, but I don't expect that I can be compelled to unlock my devices and be detained if I refuse.

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#77

Post by maximilianroos »

mchristen wrote: post #36
geofft wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Global Entry holder myself I expect that because the government has done a background check on me, has my fingerprints, etc., it generally understands that (despite my Indian skin, unshaved stubble, and vote for Hillary) I am not a threat. I have voluntarily subjected myself the government conducting a background check and holding files / information on me in exchange for less hassle. So part of it is that it's…

I'm an American and I have been detained and searched by CBP without actually ever leaving the country. They didn't ask my name, just that we needed to get out of the car while they let their dog search the car.

You don't have to get out of the car. CBP only have power to stop you to ascertain the citizenship of the passengers. They need reasonable suspicion to further detain you, or probable cause to search you or your car.

You can consent to the search, but you don't need to. If you refuse consent and they lack probable cause, the evidence would be suppressed.

For more details: https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-right...

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#78

Post by [deleted] »

komali2 wrote: post #23

Dunno what to do about this. I think TSA is a sham and a waste of my money. I think border control is taking my money and using it to abuse people. I don't think it's ok that I can pay to avoid the poor people line at the airport. I've written my reps and the president, I call about once a month, but it has no measurable effect. Smarter people than me have done audits on TSA and published them in famous newspapers to…

[deleted]

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#79

Post by maximilianroos »

geofft wrote: post #76
maximilianroos wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This slightly confuses a few issues: - Under Martinez-Fuerte, CBP can briefly question anyone at a checkpoint within 100 miles of the US border to ascertain their citizenship. The only privilege over usual reasonable suspicion / probable cause searches is to ascertain citizenship (so searching your glove compartment or your pockets isn't granted). - There's a border search exception _passing through the border_, whic…

Thanks. I was going to say—I expect (as a citizen) that within 100 miles of the border I can be searched without a warrant by CBP and be detained if I refuse, but I don't expect that I can be compelled to unlock my devices and be detained if I refuse.

> I expect (as a citizen) that within 100 miles of the border I can be searched without a warrant by CBP and be detained if I refuse

Expect more! Your possessions can't be searched without probable cause / consent / warrant unless you're passing through the border

Re: No one should have to travel in fear

#80

Post by smoe »

14 wrote: post #59
jacquesm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time an article like this pops up I am validated in my decision to no longer travel to the United States.

This is the part I don't get. Surely they realize there are a large portion of people that will avoid that county just on principle that they may be hassled at the border. I can imagine that these policies have cost them millions of dollars. Imagine going to a county and being turned around all because you had an employers laptop you promised not to unlock for anyone. Or how about a personal laptop with naked picture…

Pretty much all Europeans I know working in Latin America that travel home 1-2 a year, avoid flights that go trough US airports even tough it would often be the cheapest options by quite some margin. For me not having to deal with US borders is worth the up to 300 USD difference in flight price.

I did it once back in 2008 for a flight from Costa Rica to Switzerland via Miami and was caught completely by surprise that, unlike every other airport in the world I have been prior, Miami (US in general?) did not have a separate transit area, and that I had to go trough the whole customs and migration circus for a 3 hour layover.

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