I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me • Hacker News Board

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#401

Post by kelnos » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

Natanael_L wrote: post #241

Townley wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind helping me understand this a bit better? The link mentions that to produce a HDCP-compatible device (eg one that has an HDMI port) it needs to be licensed, pay an annual fee, and make promises to frustrate DRM-mitigation efforts. If I wanted to make my own monitor with a VGA input (or, more practically, pipe the signals coming from VGA into a program that does something with the feed) I would just have to find a…

A little bit of A and all of B/C/D. Not all of HDMI is encrypted, but for the part that is the protocol is known, but you also need the keys which are meant to be stored in secure hardware and difficult to extract. Also, old keys are frequently phased out, with new media requiring newer keys for playback.

How does that work? If I have an old player that is perfectly technically capable of playing new media, will it fail to play requires new keys? If so, that's atrocious, and I'm glad I jumped off the physical media train post-DVD.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#402

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #400

Dylan16807 wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downloading client is in charge of which parts of the file it gets first. It can easily go in order.

How easily, and how much setup is necessary? Remember, we're talking about competing with a service that doesn't even make the end-user consider whether that is a problem that needs to be solved (just plug in a credit card and off you go).

A coder spent an hour changing the code, once, and now it requires zero effort for users. They never know the difference. Open popcorn time and wait for it to quickly buffer.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#403

Post by cprecioso » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

Maybe a solution for the problem in the post: one way to simulate Electron but using full Chrome instead of the DRM-less Chromium, is to make the app target Carlo[1] instead. It's basically what a Chrome app used to be (now deprecated), but run from a Node.js script.

[1]: https://github.com/GoogleChromeLabs/carlo

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#404

Post by simias » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #368

simias wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that, for movies and TV shows at least, this simply doesn't work. The delay is small enough that it's usually negligible (a few hours in my experience). For live events (especially sporting events) of course that's enough to make pirating impractical, but for the new episode of Game of Thrones it's really not much. Furthermore I assume that most of that latency is not due to the time required for pirates…

> For live events (especially sporting events) of course that's enough to make pirating impractical, but for the new episode of Game of Thrones it's really not much. I think you underestimate how many people prefer to watch the latest episode as it airs. > not due to the time required for pirates to break the DRM Even if the DRM is already broken, you can't just ignore the initial time spent to break it. > until it r…

>I think you underestimate how many people prefer to watch the latest episode as it airs.

I don't, but even without any DRM you still have the delay between the moment the ripper manages to get the file and the moment it's available for download. DRM doesn't really change anything here. It's not like for games where DRM can delay the release of cracked version by days or even sometimes weeks.

>Even if the DRM is already broken, you can't just ignore the initial time spent to break it.

For movies and TV shows I think I can. It's just so full of holes and broken implementations that it's usually trivial to crack. I have yet to see the release of a good quality movie or TV show because they couldn't crack the DRM.

>Let's say you stopped 100 random people on a busy street and asked them what a "public torrent tracker" is. How many do you think would know what that even means?

I honestly don't know, but I do know that streaming solutions and direct download websites are pretty mainstream in my experience. Megaupload was huge for instance.

But even if you're right and it's obscure, doesn't that make DRM even more pointless? If people don't pirate because they don't know how why would they start ripping Netflix streams? Technically speaking it's even more involved.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#405

Post by the8472 » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #399

the8472 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EME is part of web standards. So for some value of standards compliant web browser google can block you from implementing it. https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/REC-encrypted-media-20170918/

EME does not require Widevine; you can implement EME in its entirety yourself, in open code. Widevine is only one of several implementations of a Content Decryption Module; it just so happens to be by far the easiest to license (though that doesn't mean that's easy!).

An EME implementation is not complete without a decryption module. And getting one is the problem here.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#406

Post by lostmyoldone » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

KorematsuFred wrote: post #322

Can someone please give me a Tl;dr for this post ? Why would google have any say in someone making a web browser ? Where does their path have to cross ?

My mistake, the repo linked apparently doesn't contain the source, it's closed. But apparently not because the current solution requires it, but because the repo contains older versions which contained proprietary code or data. The latter should be rather easy to fix.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#407

Post by the8472 » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

janoc wrote: post #381

the8472 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland is an EU member, so your government must have some implementation of the EU Copyright directive, which includes somewhat similar anti-circumvention clauses as the DMCA[0]. There are lots of differences in the details, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that it's completely legal without actually checking the corresponding laws. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi...

You need to realize that the EU "directives" are not actually the law (aka the thing that will get you prosecuted). The directives are "transposed" into national law, country by country - and each country can (and does) add a local "flavor" to it. So if the Poles have watered down the anti-circumvention clause (it is very vague in the directive, giving a ton of maneuvering space to the national parliaments), the situ…

I am aware, that's why I wrote "some implementation of", which needs to be checked. I am skeptical about the blanket statement made, it's usually more nuanced.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#408

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

kwindla wrote: post #256

Let's add the US Congress and the EU to the long list of parties to blame for the DRM situation. "Reverse engineering" software for the purposes of "circumventing" copyright is illegal. "Circumventing" is much more broadly defined than it should be. It's not just illegal to redistribute copyrighted material. That's the point of copyright and has been the case for a long time. It's also illegal to watch/consume conten…

It's a dangerous precedent. Think about adblock. You're just choosing to render the data websites give to you differently.

What if you design a web browser that just ignores most blobs of CSS/Javascript and renders content in a very different way. Are you now breaking copyright? Because you're rendering the data differently than the W3C standard or blocking certain elements?

I realize this is specifically about DRM content, but I feel like it won't be a stretch to try to apply these laws to common content.

Lets all start running Gopher servers again... Fuck the modern web.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#409

Post by jp555 » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #334

krzyk wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The above is most probably for US based clients. E.g. in Poland it is perfectly legal to watch copyrighted material as long as you don't redistribute it. It is also legal to do a reverse engineering of software to allow it to run on your system, software, hardware (so I think a browser also applies). (I'm not a lawyer, just reading some of the more technical law articles)

Poland is an EU member, so your government must have some implementation of the EU Copyright directive, which includes somewhat similar anti-circumvention clauses as the DMCA[0]. There are lots of differences in the details, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that it's completely legal without actually checking the corresponding laws. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi...

I read during earlier attempts to pass the Copyright directive that it is not implementable in Poland because it would be unconstitutional. I understood that was why Poland was voting against it, but that was in the summer, and I’m not sure if the version that passed is different.

Re: I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me

#410

Post by masukomi » Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #408

kwindla wrote: post #256

Let's add the US Congress and the EU to the long list of parties to blame for the DRM situation. "Reverse engineering" software for the purposes of "circumventing" copyright is illegal. "Circumventing" is much more broadly defined than it should be. It's not just illegal to redistribute copyrighted material. That's the point of copyright and has been the case for a long time. It's also illegal to watch/consume conten…

It's a dangerous precedent. Think about adblock. You're just choosing to render the data websites give to you differently. What if you design a web browser that just ignores most blobs of CSS/Javascript and renders content in a very different way. Are you now breaking copyright? Because you're rendering the data differently than the W3C standard or blocking certain elements? I realize this is specifically about DRM c…

> What if you design a web browser that just ignores most blobs of CSS/Javascript and renders content in a very different way.

that describes every command line / terminal web browser.