If I understand the thesis of the article correctly, the idea is that most developers actually care about open source production , meanwhile open source licenses are only capable of restricting distribution? The example given is GitHub versus open source bug trackers. You didn't come out and say this directly Steve, but isn't this basically flirting with the conclusion that developers tend to prefer proprietary platf…
What comes after open source
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Re: What comes after open source
#12Just a sidenote Steve - I met you briefly at a rails event in Berlin about 6 years ago and you were inspirational. Love the fact that you're a super humble guy working your pants off for the community. Super busy right now (yes I shouldn't be on hacker new right now but you know how it goes :) but I'm going to have a proper look at your article as soon as I get a bit of time. Its sure to be insightfull.
Re: What comes after open source
#13If I understand the thesis of the article correctly, the idea is that most developers actually care about open source production , meanwhile open source licenses are only capable of restricting distribution? The example given is GitHub versus open source bug trackers. You didn't come out and say this directly Steve, but isn't this basically flirting with the conclusion that developers tend to prefer proprietary platf…
Roughly, yes. Or, with slightly more nuance, open source has been synonymous with "uses an open source licence", but semantically, developers are understanding open source to be a more holistic idea of openness, rather than purely a software license strategy. And the licence can't possible ensure that the rest of those ideas are followed.
Seems like I'm on the same page with you then. I don't really see a way to codify all of the peripheral open source associations in a legal document. A lot of it is very...ad hoc.
Re: What comes after open source
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
Roughly, yes. Or, with slightly more nuance, open source has been synonymous with "uses an open source licence", but semantically, developers are understanding open source to be a more holistic idea of openness, rather than purely a software license strategy. And the licence can't possible ensure that the rest of those ideas are followed.
FYI I edited my comment since you replied, I wasn't done with my train of thought yet :) Seems like I'm on the same page with you then. I don't really see a way to codify all of the peripheral open source associations in a legal document. A lot of it is very...ad hoc.
> but isn't this basically flirting with the conclusion that developers tend to prefer proprietary platforms?
I don't think they prefer proprietary platforms, I think they prefer good platforms, and will put that desire over "is it open source or not." But, I think you also can't split that by "platform", that is, in some areas, the open source aspect wins out. There are also hybrid platforms, with some open-ness, some close-ness. I think ultimately my point is "most developers are not free software absolutists."
Re: What comes after open source
#15I pulled a 5-year-old desktop computer out of storage, bought a new $50 hard drive for it, put my resume on Craigslist (of all places), installed Ruby on Rails and all my development tools, and within two weeks I had a job working from home for $40 an hour. I didn't have to re-certify, renew any licenses, or pay anyone any fees of any kind. I didn't lose access to any tools I relied on in my previous job. My only expense for maintaining my employability was $50. I have a four-year degree only.
I don't know of any other industry where that's possible, and I don't know if it's possible to do that in this industry anymore. I know it is because of the hard work of the open source movement. I've been thinking a lot about how to preserve that level of economic empowerment in software. I don't think the answer is in licenses, but in something like a union (although you are right in that most developers are rabidly anti-union). Perhaps an alternative corporate structure would have the same result, and that's why I decided to start the first for-profit software collective.
Re: What comes after open source
#16"I definitely want someone to be able to modify, fork, and publish better versions of this code. Do I also want them to be able to commercially license their derivatives?"
On one hand, this code was contributed to the public commons and it'd be sleazy for Amazon to come along, improve it, and license it. It seems unfair, and the spectre of giving free labor to innovation-killing, rich entities discourages me from contributing. A GPL license takes care of that concern, and provides a much-needed codification of fairness.
On the other hand, giving people an MIT license and saying "You can do whatever you want! Go nuts! Innovate!" is a boon to creativity. If some startup took my weekend project and made $1 billion off of it, good for them! That's the innovation that open-source is meant to encourage!
When the article mentioned that coders are confused, it hit the nail on the head. We're confused individually and collectively; emotionally and conceptually; theoretically and concretely.
We're looking for a simple answer to the question "Which option do I select from the GitHub license dropdown so I can get back to making value" when there's no simple answer to be found.
Re: What comes after open source
#17Very clever and well put. I have to let this one stew. That said, still in the camp of "nothing is wrong," I think. It is a tough pill to swallow that companies that build around open source software are fundamentally vulnerable, but perhaps it's time to swallow. Open Source has never been healthier even ignoring those contributions. If X manages to corner Y into a proprietary license, does open source win or lose? I…
I do think that open source is working. The question is more of, who is it working for, and why? Could it be made to work for more people? Is it working in the way we want it to work?
For example, your comment is framed about the health of Open Source itself. I see a lot more developers concerned about the health (in many senses) of the developers who are working on open source, over the health of the idea of open source in and of itself. They're also concerned about corporate control (in a steering sense more than a "total control" sense) over open source and platforms that are open source.
Can today's open source sustain itself? Sure, probably. Lots of things that are not fundamentally sustainable manage to last for quite a while. But I do think people are wanting something better, even if they're not totally sure what that is or how to get it. I mean, I don't fully know either :)
Re: What comes after open source
#18Re: What comes after open source
#19Re: What comes after open source
#20I recently wrote a piece of software and wanted to make it open source. GitHub's helpful dropdown of license choices gave me more pause than I expected as I struggled to choose between MIT and GPL. "I definitely want someone to be able to modify, fork, and publish better versions of this code. Do I also want them to be able to commercially license their derivatives?" On one hand, this code was contributed to the publ…