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Vietnam’s Empty Forests

nytimes.com

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Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#21

Post by tluyben2 »

badpun wrote: post #18
tluyben2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travel a lot (work and pleasure) and you see this almost at least in every poorer Asian country; Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, Sri Lanka. So much plastic, everywhere. I cannot understand people can live with it. I mean if it's around the corner, maybe you can but people just let it lie in front of their doors. In NL people sweep 3 leaves in the compost heap that is in front of their doors; plastic or o…

You most likely only start to care about your surroundings when you exceed a certain income treshold. Below that, you’re just too occupied with bare survival.

I agree and find that logical, but I saw many villas with expensive western cars in front that had heaps of plastics in front and in the garden. Those people seem to not be struggling with survival but just don't care?

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#22

Post by senorjazz »

tluyben2 wrote: post #21
badpun wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You most likely only start to care about your surroundings when you exceed a certain income treshold. Below that, you’re just too occupied with bare survival.

I agree and find that logical, but I saw many villas with expensive western cars in front that had heaps of plastics in front and in the garden. Those people seem to not be struggling with survival but just don't care?

I've noticed rich people in poor countries are very aware of what is not becoming of them. They were probably waiting for some poor person to come work for a few dollars a day to come do the jobs beneath them.

I've seen it with the wife's family (middle class South American). They are used to my strange ways now, but they were shocked when they saw me washing the car, doing the gardening, tidying the yard, "why are you doing that, you have money, just pay someone".

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#23

Post by leejoramo »

trickstra wrote: post #15
baolongtrann wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Viet, born and raised. My country is blessed with incredible scenery, diverse and natural. The coast line is as long as the country itself ffs. Now I won't claim that I'm an avid traveler, but from my limited traveling experience (only been to Australia, Korea, Japan and Hongkong on vacation, nothing too fancy), I have never been to a place that I would rank higher in terms of beautiful, natural scenery. Howeve…

Western tourist also immediately notice it when they come to SE Asia. It's a pity that this is such a strong memory. As a Vietnamese local, why do you think the plastic pollution is so widespread here? Sure, everything is packed in plastics, but so is in Japan. Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach? Or is most of it coming from the sea?…

As a child growing up in 1970s USA, I remember the vast amount of trash along our roads, city streets, parks and beaches. It was fairly common to see people throw trash out of their car windows.

What changed? I have never studied this, but I know we implemented large scale clean up projects, passed new laws and made a cultural shift in attitudes.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#24

Post by lotsofpulp »

adventured wrote: post #20
Halluxfboy009 wrote: post #7

Mankind must find a way to curb our population growth and our greed. We are, and have been blind. Not only are we destroying the natural world, we will ultimately destroy ourselves. Let us somehow find a way to limit our population growth and give those that are then born a first rate education so that they are capable of seeing and appreciating the big picture. Knowledge, objectivity - the realization that life on t…

We already are dramatically curbing our population growth. The rate of global population growth has plunged since ~1970. The rate will drop from a peak of about 2% per year in 1970 to 0.2% by ~2060. We've already roughly cut the growth rate in half in 40 some years. By the late 2030s, we should have the rate of growth returned to pre industrialization boom numbers (when the rate began to rapidly increase). It takes t…

The metric that matters is resources consumed per person. If people's goals are to achieve consumption levels similar to upper middle class in USA or Europe, then it doesn't matter if the total population growth is slowing down, or even contracting, as resource consumption will still very much be exploding.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#25

Post by stefanfisk »

leejoramo wrote: post #23
trickstra wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western tourist also immediately notice it when they come to SE Asia. It's a pity that this is such a strong memory. As a Vietnamese local, why do you think the plastic pollution is so widespread here? Sure, everything is packed in plastics, but so is in Japan. Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach? Or is most of it coming from the sea?…

As a child growing up in 1970s USA, I remember the vast amount of trash along our roads, city streets, parks and beaches. It was fairly common to see people throw trash out of their car windows. What changed? I have never studied this, but I know we implemented large scale clean up projects, passed new laws and made a cultural shift in attitudes.

I also remember Sweden being like this until early/mid 90s. The only real change AFAIK was peoples' attitudes, as a result of government campaigns.

Hell, in the 60s you could watch wonderfully informational movies as this on the one and only available TV station https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrcrX9Qaw2o. (skip to 1:15 for the recommended practise of waste removal near the ocean).

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#26

Post by refurb »

badpun wrote: post #18
tluyben2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travel a lot (work and pleasure) and you see this almost at least in every poorer Asian country; Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, Sri Lanka. So much plastic, everywhere. I cannot understand people can live with it. I mean if it's around the corner, maybe you can but people just let it lie in front of their doors. In NL people sweep 3 leaves in the compost heap that is in front of their doors; plastic or o…

You most likely only start to care about your surroundings when you exceed a certain income treshold. Below that, you’re just too occupied with bare survival.

That may be true, but plenty of countries where the majority have secured a middle class existence still don’t care about the trash everywhere.

Hell, in the US 50 years ago it wasn’t that uncommon to find trash everywhere.

It may be related to wealth, but it has to be something else as well.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#28

Post by badpun »

tluyben2 wrote: post #21
badpun wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You most likely only start to care about your surroundings when you exceed a certain income treshold. Below that, you’re just too occupied with bare survival.

I agree and find that logical, but I saw many villas with expensive western cars in front that had heaps of plastics in front and in the garden. Those people seem to not be struggling with survival but just don't care?

It may be the fact that, even if you tidy up your yard, as soon as you step out of the premise, you're in garbage land - if you value beauty, you will be depressed anyway. Plus, no doubt it's partially cultural i.e. a lot of these well-off people grew up poor, so it's in their values to not care about the beauty too much (they were raised by their poor parents to focus on survival, and that's what they did for their whole life until they became well off). Their children may be different though, esp. if they go to an university in a cleaner city.

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#29

Post by primroot »

badpun wrote: post #18
tluyben2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I travel a lot (work and pleasure) and you see this almost at least in every poorer Asian country; Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, Sri Lanka. So much plastic, everywhere. I cannot understand people can live with it. I mean if it's around the corner, maybe you can but people just let it lie in front of their doors. In NL people sweep 3 leaves in the compost heap that is in front of their doors; plastic or o…

You most likely only start to care about your surroundings when you exceed a certain income treshold. Below that, you’re just too occupied with bare survival.

This reminds me of the Summer's memo [0]:

This does not even follow from the parent comment. I quote:

" it's not only the very poor, it's also in front or in gardens of villa's in those countries. "

I live in Panama, which might have higher per capita GDP than some of those countries, but it still has high income inequality. I have been to neighborhoods with small houses, no glass windows, and no painted walls, all markers of low income, given the somewhat americanized consumption habits of the middle class population. The worst you would see is that they burn their trash, because no one is coming to pick it. They have gardens will plants, both for food and decoration. People with higher income just buy more land, a grass mower, and irrigate their grass in the dry season. So, I see this behavior as a matter culture. Clearly in neither case are people "too occupied with bare survival" but neither has a cold-minded science-based idea of what it means to care for one's surroundings.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summers_memo

Re: Vietnam’s Empty Forests

#30

Post by ataturk »

leejoramo wrote: post #23
trickstra wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western tourist also immediately notice it when they come to SE Asia. It's a pity that this is such a strong memory. As a Vietnamese local, why do you think the plastic pollution is so widespread here? Sure, everything is packed in plastics, but so is in Japan. Why do people just not think twice about throwing their waste in a ditch or a river or leave their picnic at the beach? Or is most of it coming from the sea?…

As a child growing up in 1970s USA, I remember the vast amount of trash along our roads, city streets, parks and beaches. It was fairly common to see people throw trash out of their car windows. What changed? I have never studied this, but I know we implemented large scale clean up projects, passed new laws and made a cultural shift in attitudes.

Where I live, the recent arrivals, let's call them "visitors" although cynically they are probably permanent residents now because our legislators treat them like they're more important than actual citizens. Anyhow, these newcomers seem to enjoy throwing trash out their car windows ALL THE TIME. I have witnessed it personally. Who the hell thinks it is okay to get fast food and then as soon as you're done eating in your car while driving, pitch it out the fucking window? It makes me fucking livid.

My wife and I (and sometimes my kids) spend several sunny afternoons each year picking up bags of trash gathered from the streets around our home. I don't enjoy this work, but if nobody else is going to do it, I will. I refuse to live in a 3rd World dump and I'll do what I can to keep it from looking like that.

But yeah, push us Americans a little harder. See what happens.

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