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Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

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Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#61

Post by PaulHoule »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

Most of the US freight rail system isn't electrified because the capital expenditures of doing so would be very large, and its return on investment in terms of direct monetary savings wouldn't materialize for many, many years. Since externalities aren't priced in, diesel-electric locomotives haul most trains in the US. More passenger rail isn't really being built in the US, because the capital expenditures of doing s…

Some other issues are that high speed rail is not green, and it is not affordable either.

So far as adding more passenger rail lines, it isn't easy. For instance, plans for HSR in California are unrealistic because you don't save any time from SF to LA unless you can go from downtown to downtown. Sure you can build track in the Central Valley, but it would be pretty hard to take enough land by eminent domain to build a track into the cities even if these people were not the most feared NIMBYs on the planet.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#62

Post by bronco21016 »

I’ve visited Europe many times and I do like how the region is so easily accessible without a car, largely because of trains, but there are many more factors outside of just having trains. European cities are far more walkable and accessible without a car. For decades the US has just not been built up in this way so just dropping trains in doesn’t suddenly make them preferred and thus viable. The reason people drive small/medium city to small/medium city is because once arriving in that city they now need transportation while there. Currently the most convenient and cost effective way to do that is to simply bring the car you already own for moving around in your home small/medium city. If the US is going to move to an environmentally friendly passenger rail system it is going to take a MASSIVE cultural and shift in mindset to reshape cities across the country. Many of which are broke. I’m not saying it’s impossible or an unworthy goal. I simply think it is an extremely unlikely goal until mindsets shift and realize things need to be done differently.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#63

Post by nicoburns »

gruez wrote: post #56
paxy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is constrained by economic considerations. It's not like China has unlimited money. They are just choosing sectors and making bets on what to prioritize and what to ignore, same as everyone else.

You're right, but it's still relevant to note whether something is successful on its own accord, or whether it's being propped up by the government. If something can't be profitably done in a country as dense as China, there's no hope of it ever working in the US. At that point you might as well go with planes and spend the savings on carbon sequestration methods instead.

Rail is publically funded pretty much everywhere (i.e. it doesn't make a direct profit if you factor in infrastruture costs). Just because the market won't pay for it doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#64

Post by [deleted] »

philwelch wrote: post #42
perfmode wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never thought of that. Just replace the roads with rails. Remove redundant links in the highway network. Sounds like a job for a graph algorithm straight out of CS 261.

I'm not sure you can just replace highways with railroads. Changing modes isn't completely free--you have to have enough parking for passengers, freight handling equipment for freight, and in some cases, you might have to load entire vehicles onto railcars. This cancels out a lot of the benefits of rail. But, you can definitely reuse or expand the same right-of-way you had for some of the trunk highways and run rail…

[deleted]

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#65

Post by rad_gruchalski »

shereadsthenews wrote: post #52
philwelch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can just replace highways with railroads. Changing modes isn't completely free--you have to have enough parking for passengers, freight handling equipment for freight, and in some cases, you might have to load entire vehicles onto railcars. This cancels out a lot of the benefits of rail. But, you can definitely reuse or expand the same right-of-way you had for some of the trunk highways and run rail…

“enough parking for passengers, freight handling equipment for freight, and in some cases, you might have to load entire vehicles onto railcars.” There is no successful rail station anywhere on Earth that has any of that junk.

There is Eurotunnel but that’s not exactly a rail station.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#66

Post by jackcosgrove »

Rail requires significant investment to overcome the last mile problem, meaning the problem that often you need to walk the last mile from the station to your destination. Some may scoff at this but it is a major deterrent. Combine this with ride sharing apps and rail transit use has actually declined in the US in the past several years.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#67

Post by sokoloff »

throwawayjava wrote: post #33
ams6110 wrote: post #3

Cycling is cleaner than any of them. So what?

HSR is a viable alternative to flights. Similar travel times are possible. Electrified rail is a viable alternative to suburb urban center commutes. Similar/better travel times are possible. And in both cases rail is much more pleasant. E.g., ICE trains are way nicer airplanes -- anyone who thinks otherwise has never been on an ICE train or really enjoys being punished. I also prefer DB trains to being a passenger in…

> HSR is a viable alternative to flights. Similar travel times are possible.

It's a viable alternative to short-haul flights. Boston to Las Vegas, San Diego, San Francisco, or Seattle is not really competitive by rail, even if the US had any high-speed rail.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#68

Post by ummonk »

gruez wrote: post #56
paxy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is constrained by economic considerations. It's not like China has unlimited money. They are just choosing sectors and making bets on what to prioritize and what to ignore, same as everyone else.

You're right, but it's still relevant to note whether something is successful on its own accord, or whether it's being propped up by the government. If something can't be profitably done in a country as dense as China, there's no hope of it ever working in the US. At that point you might as well go with planes and spend the savings on carbon sequestration methods instead.

Most public infrastructure is not profitable. This isn’t something special about rail. That is what taxes are for.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#69

Post by PaulHoule »

gruez wrote: post #56
paxy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is constrained by economic considerations. It's not like China has unlimited money. They are just choosing sectors and making bets on what to prioritize and what to ignore, same as everyone else.

You're right, but it's still relevant to note whether something is successful on its own accord, or whether it's being propped up by the government. If something can't be profitably done in a country as dense as China, there's no hope of it ever working in the US. At that point you might as well go with planes and spend the savings on carbon sequestration methods instead.

For one thing, China can just take the land.

Second, China's population density is not high compared to inhabited parts of the U.S. Eg. even though most of California is uninhabitable, it has 50% higher population density.

Re: Trains are more efficient and less polluting than other transportation modes

#70

Post by ip26 »

youeseh wrote: post #21
melling wrote: post #11

No mention of China. They built 16,000 miles of high-speed rail in 15 years. They’ll be at 24,000 miles by 2025. The low/medium speed maglevs also seem interesting: https://gbtimes.com/china-tests-new-generation-of-maglev-tra... A 70-100 mph maglev would be useful in a few large cities.

I'd take a 100mph maglev to LA from San Francisco if it meant faster than airport boarding, on-time departure and arrival, and a seat where I can put my legs up for the same price or less than a flight.

Which was exactly my experience with the international trains in Europe. It was almost discombobulating, walking in the front door of the station, to the platform, and onto the train in about five minutes.
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