Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
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Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#2In the meanwhile, here's a couple of blogs with a little more description.
https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2019/03/28/complex-societi...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190320141116.h...
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#3Paywall, but there's a good abstract. I hope someone has a workaround. In the meanwhile, here's a couple of blogs with a little more description. https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2019/03/28/complex-societi... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190320141116.h...
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#4His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premodern peoples could be considered to be “not conscious”, as they had no inner locus to consider or contradict the voices they heard. This contrasts with the “conscious” experience, in which we personally identify with a sort of homunculus inside our heads that is watching and judging its surroundings.
Jaynes argues that societal upheaval and complexity led to changes (maybe cultural, maybe biological) that caused the “voices” to disappear, becoming absorbed into a new “conscious” stream of self-identified thought. From the perspective of societies experiencing this change, their inner gods would have been thought to have gone silent, leading to greater identification with (and societal organizing need for) externalized, idolized god figures.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#5Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#6Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#7Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
So basically while the conscious mind was evolving, people originally took that mind to be an external voice? Is it not totally automatic that people can control their conscious mind?
Not only that, but capacity to contemplate, that is to say, relative intellect has likely been augmented by our capacity to self domesticate within such environs.
On the on hand, you have the mirror test for self awareness. But it's tough to construct a comparable structured assessment for self awareness that measures up to the mirror test for self awareness. On the one hand, operating mirrors is an acquired skill. Sentient beings need exposure to a mirror for some time, before they learn to reconcile how to use it for self examination. But without a mirror, other stand-ins, like shadows, masks and palm prints start to reveal an awareness of identity. So we can look to those sorts of artifacts to resolve whether a remote indigenous society has begun to self recognize, in general, for all neary all healthy adult members at large.
But, also consider our evolutionary effect on how smart dogs are. Dogs are pretty smart, in possession of emotion, highly attentive to mood, cooperative, and recognize their own identity according to name. They recognize their own scent, and prioritize that factor of self above their appearance in mirrors, which they eventually learn is not another dog. They also dream, which probably means some dogs have vivid internal processes, even if they don't have an internal monologue.
Human societies have writing though, and it's probably writing that leads to complex societies, and of course, writing enables artifacts that record oral traditions, and eventually theology and mythology.
Really, though, look at it this way. Oral traditions are about entertaining an audience, but eventually, the written word descends into virtue signalling, as intellectuals paint each other into corners.
Ever get caught by the wrong person with a diary entry that spills your guts, telling all about what you think of everyone? How many times did you make that mistake?
That's what this reveals. That the intelligensia gains a collective recognition that failure to moralize is a form of checkmate in the court of public opinion, and virtue signaling in text is the race toward a limit (race to the top, race to the bottom, whatever). Intellectuals start to notice how blackmail works, and stop writing about the evil deeds they (may or may not) understand.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#8Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
I know the bad connotations of schizophrenia are more present in modern societies, but still, I can't see how a primitive group of schizophrenics would be able to thrive.
Is there any proof or actual need for this bicameral mind other than trying to explain the religious phenomenon?
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#9Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…
Jaynes' theory may have merit, but it isn't that relevant to this paper, which is an empirical research paper on social data and theories.
Re: Complex societies precede moralizing gods throughout world history
#10Quickly scanned through the references and didn’t see one interesting perspective: Julian Jaynes’ theory of the “breakdown of the bicameral mind” in response to increasing societal complexity. His idea is that the voices of “gods” in premodern societies were literal command hallucinations experienced by members of these societies, in the place of having self-identified conscious thought. In a way, he argues, premoder…