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San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

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Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#71
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cameras can be at every intersection all the time and can adapt in real-time to emerging traffic patterns (ie a ballgame ending and a stadium of people hitting the road at once) as well as traffic changes over time from environmental changes

Why can't pneumatic tubes do this?

Or inductive sensors

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also gives tech workers unprecedented abilities to fight it. Software engineers need to take social responsibility for what they create.

I don't think new feats in society are accomplished by holding groups of individuals to task and making each one play by the rules. We need new ideas and new government structures to fight the tide or get ahead of it and inspire people with smart and informed leadership. Shaming ambiguous highly paid developers doesn't do anything, because you are criticizing a job role , a "slot" in society, when you think you are c…

I do agree we need government regulation[1], but as perhaps a bit of defense in depth, I absolutely think we need to be instilling engineers with ethics. Would your point make any sense if we were talking about doctors, instead of engineers? We teach "first, do no harm" from day one in that field, and we wouldn't assume for any act a doctor would refuse to do, one that would is readily available. We need the same for software engineers. We need to teach people that their mere paycheck job could incite a genocide on the other side of the world.

I also dislike the "someone else will take their place" logic. While a large number of jobs are, indeed, trivially replaceable, many are not, and many developers have significantly above average skill. Some believe they act ethically, and some do not care. If we can remove those who wish to act ethically from working at unethical companies, we significantly shrink the job pool for them. They'll have less options, and likely have to fight harder and pay more to get them. This means that unethical companies may be paying more (i.e. lower profit margins) and be getting worse talent.

If we can get more of the most talented developers working at more ethical companies, the more ethical solutions will be better, and they will win in the market.

[1] I am a big proponent of GDPR and a desire for a US version of it. Though ultimately, particularly in terms of government surveillance, I feel we need a Constitutional Amendment defining a right to privacy. Something far more lasting and enshrined into our future legal framework that recognizes that privacy is a fundamental human right.

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under control from what? Committing crimes, breaking into homes, shooting people dead, raping women going out for a jog, planning terrorist activity? I welcome it.

If you create a massive surveillance system for "good" purposes that doesn't mean someone can't later use it for nefarious purposes. One (rather primitive by modern standards) example is that Poland required people to list if they were Jewish for their national census, and then the Nazis used that list to round up and account for Jews in the holocaust. Since the US routinely violates the constitution in the name of f…

Let me tell you something: No matter what you do, evil always finds a way. And when it does, do you really want to live with the regret that you could have done more, but chose not to for fear of some imaginary future evil?

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#74
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Access to the video is very limited and subject to strict protocols for use in investigations." That's what they all say. It's an empty platitude at best. "the audio recording capability isn't live" Yet . It is still present, though, and could become live should San Diego decide it to be useful.

Yes exactly this. The "trust us, we are very careful with this ability to spy on you" should be taken with a grain of salt.

Every person in these towns that have this violation of basic rights, should be demanding the takedown immediately but they won't. Again and again the people of this country fall for the "trust us. We are her to help you." lie that our government sells. If they do care, many people are in a state of disagreement and division so much that they won't work together out of spite if it means working with another ideology.

America, land of the free and home of the obedient and fearful. Seeing this, I can't help but feel like we have gone too far to have any return to what privacy we did have.

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#75
post #43

This is what so sad about tech, it gives those in power unprecedented abilities to control the population. Essentially heading back to slavery through technology with no way out for the slaves anymore.

On the other hand, people of color are currently living in a world of extremely corrupt police (see https://www.baltimoresun.com/year-in-review/bs-md-yir-baltim...) and general danger, and these cameras will help keep the police and other criminals accountable.

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also gives tech workers unprecedented abilities to fight it. Software engineers need to take social responsibility for what they create.

Tell that to the Google. Their employees scoffed about working with the Pentagon and dropped the contract, but happily helped China build an authoritarian social-punishment system. Then denied it ... and then more details kept coming out showing Google continued working on it, just more quietly.

Pretty sure Google wasn't working on a social punishment system (ie the Chinese "credit score" that's based on social factors), but a censored search engine, which is still pretty shitty but not nearly as bad as what you claim, unless I missed some big piece of news and am myself mistaken

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also gives tech workers unprecedented abilities to fight it. Software engineers need to take social responsibility for what they create.

Tell that to the Google. Their employees scoffed about working with the Pentagon and dropped the contract, but happily helped China build an authoritarian social-punishment system. Then denied it ... and then more details kept coming out showing Google continued working on it, just more quietly.

Many Googlers have already left Google on ethical grounds, and many more likely will in the near future. There are multiple organized groups of employees trying to enact change internally, but some who previously did that have already recognized that as futile and left, so presumably more will eventually.

Google is already an extremely large company, and I think that many are only just now realizing the problems that they were contributing to. It may take a while for employee actions (both protests and resignations) to have a visible impact due to it's size, but I think they're making progress.

As per my thoughts I expounded here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19548485 I think that Google's available talent pool is shrinking. Many very talented engineers have left, and many new potential engineers would not want to work there. Sure, there are still plenty who do, but I would say their options are narrowing over time.

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the Google. Their employees scoffed about working with the Pentagon and dropped the contract, but happily helped China build an authoritarian social-punishment system. Then denied it ... and then more details kept coming out showing Google continued working on it, just more quietly.

Pretty sure Google wasn't working on a social punishment system (ie the Chinese "credit score" that's based on social factors), but a censored search engine, which is still pretty shitty but not nearly as bad as what you claim, unless I missed some big piece of news and am myself mistaken

Dragonfly allegedly is designed to associate searches with a user's phone number, which can be tied to their identity. Since China would have access to this system, it's likely searches for banned topics would be able to impact your social credit, or potentially get you disappeared in the middle of the night.

https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-l...

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#79
post #41

It's just a matter of time until we have country-wide full surveillance. It will be the perfect tool for anyone who wants to create a dictatorship. The thought police and the telescreens in 1984 will look primitive and weak in comparison. I think there is no way around it. Add to that drones to keep the population under control and there is huge danger we'll have a pretty bleak future.

There's probably too many security holes inherent in modern technology to get that sort of one-party equilibrium. You'll have the governments who paid for the surveillance tech, the companies that installed backdoors in products they manufactured, the suppliers that installed backdoors in the components of those products, rival nation states, various hacker collectives, and the criminals they sold exploits to all jockeying for power in a cat & mouse game of information warfare.

It'll probably end in a war of some sort, as power struggles usually do, but a chaotic don't-know-who-your-enemies-are war like Syria rather than the Great Power contests of WW2. Then after the war we'll likely see the survival of technologies that don't require large-scale maintenance (like solar, batteries or mechanical/thermal storage, electric motors, market economies, flexible micro-manufacturing, computers, and drones) over those that do (like the electric grid, large corporations, state-wide surveillance, broadcast networks, large standing armies, etc.).

Re: San Diego Implemented City-Wide Streetlight Surveillance

#80
post #55
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of defeatism isn't helpful. Surveillance technology doesn't sprout up from nothingness; it's built on a culture and a political/economic environment which can be changed.

> which can be changed. But won't be. GWB expanded the state's powers with the Patriot Act, Obama signed an extension and then a new version of the act when parts expired. When both sides are pro-surveillance and Americans refuse to change the system or support 3rd parties, what change can there be?

Why call them the "two sides" if there are the same? You need actual change.
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