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How not to hire a software engineer

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Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#191

Post by pmiller2 »

morkfromork wrote: post #3

Lately I have done a few at home code challenges for companies. They usually take several hours. They are perfectly functional and use minimal code but, the only feedback I receive is: "we're not moving forward". They won't discuss anything with me. The only impression I get is that your company is terrible and I will never respond to your recruiters again.

I've got you beat regarding feedback. I applied to a backend position looking for 3-5 years of backend experience, and was told I "didn't have enough API experience." I had 5 years of backend experience at the time. Literally all I do is write, modify, and interact with APIs.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#192

Post by kristopolous »

externalreality wrote: post #78
kristopolous wrote: post #10

I look to see if I can trust them to not do dumb things. That's really it. What's the ego, arrogance, competence, willingness to ask questions, interrogate things, redefine problems to be less work (or none at all). Do you see what's not there? Programming language competency. Database knowledge. Things like that. I've been hired as a Ruby programmer, I didn't know Ruby. I was hired for mainframes in the 90s - I had…

I wish everyone thought that way but they don't. In today's rapid paced world if you don't know Rails (not even Ruby) but Rails, for example, and we're using it - then you ain't in... and here write this 8 hour code test so we can subjectively judge it because grading code tests to see if you don't put logic in your controllers make our egos hum.

well then fuck those companies. The people you work with will be the people who made it through that kind of filter.

Their other processes are probably equally terrible and their codebase is likely a nightmare. Make your money somewhere else. Really.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#193

Post by mratzloff »

wink wrote: post #114

On the plus side: I wholeheartedly agree with all those points. On the contra side: Nothing of this really felt like it helped me. I found interviewing people absolutely horrible and almost never had a good feeling. People who seemed like they may have been a good fit didn't get offers for one reason or another, some people seemed awesome in the interview and then weren't. Overall I've been happy with the decisions I…

I call this "developer swagger." As in, "I'm such a hot commodity, I don't need to care about your company specifically."

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#194

Post by wsy »

watwut wrote: post #189
jimbokun wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What exactly you want me to ask assuming I know salary and position?" "Who are your most important customers?" "What is your monthly recurring revenue?" "What is your best selling product?" "What's one thing you like about working here?" "What's one thing you don't like about working here?" This isn't very difficult. Just requires a slight interest in the industry you plan to work in.

None of them is useful for anything. They are just questions that you ask to fulfill the "must ask question" requirement. Generally, product is on company main page. Asking that one likely shows you did not seen it. Moreover, they are unlikely to tell you monthly recurring revenue. That is just odd question. Our company would not definitely. Hiring manager will not tell you what he does not like about working there -…

If you read the company's web site, and are a curious and interested person, then you should pretty quickly stumble upon things you would like to know which aren't written there. So if you come up empty, either you are not interested in that company at all, or your curiosity is so easily satisfied that a plain web site can answer all your questions. Both is not a great sign for a prospective employee.

Even suppose you apply to a straightforward company with an extremely detailed web site, so that all your questions have been answered already, then this is still a test if you can meet social expectations. You are indeed expected to have questions, and if you don't even follow this simple convention because you think you know everything already, then your social skills are probably underdeveloped.

Finally, even you already know much about the company (e.g., about the most important product), asking about things you know already and comparing this with what you are told in the application talk will give you additional valuable information. Are they excited about their product? Are they exaggerating? Are they bored when answering? Do they know the basic information on their own web site? If you don't use the opportunity to extract as much information as you can, it's simply not smart.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#195

Post by mjevans »

therealx wrote: post #160
TallGuyShort wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally do tell them it's a complex problem and I'm looking more for how they approach it than any specific solution. I don't tell them everything I'm looking for because then they'll just pretend to be the way I want them to be. But I disagree that it's unrealistic. I've had far too many employees and coworkers who don't understand what is being asked of them or don't know what they're doing, and try to fake it…

I like this idea because it allows me to figure out if they have one of the most important skills: being able to say "I don't know" without wasting a lot of time. IMO anyone else saying you should tell them the solutions might not have answers are dancing around needing to have that skill.

Then problem is that getting to "I don't know" can take a LONG time for someone who's actually a good fit. A generalist (jack of all trades, willing to become a master in some that are used often in a local time domain) might actually know a lot of that information.

A good way of approaching this might be to provide problem feedback during the mock, stating that there's a given problem reported with the results or some other plausible complication and seeing how things go from there.

Also, the not knowing thing. I've hit that a few times myself, however I'll generally exhaust every reasonable option I have to look-up or reverse engineer the solution on my own first. Google / duckduckgo, stack-overflow, asking some other tech friends if they've encountered similar things before; if I worked somewhere with other technical users that I expect might have seen this they'd be just before the out of company friends on that list.

By the time I get to something I don't know, and can't find out on my own, it's actually a DIFFICULT or VERY domain specific problem. Generally then I go for adding diagnostic prints or using a debugger to trace the problem and find out where things are going wrong so I at least can narrow down causes/solutions. Even then, it's still taking a __LOT__ to get to I don't know.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#196

Post by pnw_hazor »

r_smart wrote: post #151
wink wrote: post #114

On the plus side: I wholeheartedly agree with all those points. On the contra side: Nothing of this really felt like it helped me. I found interviewing people absolutely horrible and almost never had a good feeling. People who seemed like they may have been a good fit didn't get offers for one reason or another, some people seemed awesome in the interview and then weren't. Overall I've been happy with the decisions I…

At my last employer, I sat in on an interview for a co-op with my boss. After asking the interviewee some questions the conversation went basically like this: Boss: Do you have any questions for me? Co-op: No Boss: Would you like to know about the company? What we do? Co-op: No I couldn't help myself from laughing. I know he's just a student, but he's still a 20 something adult. No interest at all, just looking to ch…

One of my last tech interviews was for a startup. The tech team were all kids and seemed embarrassed to be interviewing me because I had much more experience than them. That all went well.

I asked to have a brief meeting with senior leadership to talk about their business model/plan -- how did they intend to make money?

CEO, COO, CFO, CTO, or the like, would do (it was a small co.). So I got an appointment for 30 minutes with the CTO or CFO (can't remember). Day of the meeting I show up and checkin with reception. 20 minutes later, I reminded them I was still here and someone came out and told me the guy I was supposed meet was out of the office on travel.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#197

Post by weka »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #72
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actively say things similar to what you said. For example, if I’m ever asked why I want the job or why I’d be a good match at the company, I will always say I don’t know. I’ll always say I’m not trying to be facetious or dodge the question, but with limited information from a job listing, maybe a few phone calls, and a day of small 1-hour interviews (that are mostly made up of coding questions with no time for me t…

It is very difficult for me not to say I want the job because I sell my skills for money, if you are willing to pay the price I want then I am willing to provide the product you need.

"because money can be exchanged for goods and or services."

Interviewer didn't like that answer too much, heh.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#198

Post by diminoten »

jimbokun wrote: post #173
diminoten wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it basically is illegal to let a non-lawyer give someone feedback. Not literally, but negligent of a company to allow.

Can you elaborate? What do these laws actually say?

It's less about what the laws say and more about what the consequences of not following industry standard would be.

If you explicitly flout standard and as a result get sued for violating one of the related hiring/discrimination laws, your investors may have a good case to sue you personally because you didn't act in the best interest of the company by opening your company up to that extra risk for no tangible benefit.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#199

Post by dzonga »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #21
kristopolous wrote: post #10

I look to see if I can trust them to not do dumb things. That's really it. What's the ego, arrogance, competence, willingness to ask questions, interrogate things, redefine problems to be less work (or none at all). Do you see what's not there? Programming language competency. Database knowledge. Things like that. I've been hired as a Ruby programmer, I didn't know Ruby. I was hired for mainframes in the 90s - I had…

Sadly I’m yet to meet an employer who thinks like this. Especially in Australia. I’m a C# developer not because I was born with C# DNA but because to use any other language in suddenly looking at junior wages. Even though I could do a great job in any programmming language. It’s insane.

out of curiosity how high / low relatively are the aussie wages compared to us ones ?

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#200

Post by watwut »

wsy wrote: post #194
watwut wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of them is useful for anything. They are just questions that you ask to fulfill the "must ask question" requirement. Generally, product is on company main page. Asking that one likely shows you did not seen it. Moreover, they are unlikely to tell you monthly recurring revenue. That is just odd question. Our company would not definitely. Hiring manager will not tell you what he does not like about working there -…

If you read the company's web site, and are a curious and interested person, then you should pretty quickly stumble upon things you would like to know which aren't written there. So if you come up empty, either you are not interested in that company at all, or your curiosity is so easily satisfied that a plain web site can answer all your questions. Both is not a great sign for a prospective employee. Even suppose yo…

It just sounds like complete rationalization. That is not how humans work nor how companies work. That is not how interest in things work especially not in work or position.

Yes, it is test of whether you know that social thing. So, if the company is treating it as the test of that, then it is fine. Instead, the parent was almost offended over that "No interest at all, just looking to check another box on his list of credentials. At least fake it!".

> Are they excited about their product? Are they exaggerating? Are they bored when answering? Do they know the basic information on their own web site?

Christ, you are talking with hiring manager at that point. I would not mind him not knowing company web site. Most employees don't actually go there all that often. That person might not even work on that product. Unless we are talking about very small company, people do their small parts of the larger whole.

You are hiring tech person and while cooperation, ability to express oneself clearly and without pointless insults, ability to listen and such are important, ability to guess excitement from someone they don't know much less so. It is not sales position.

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