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A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#211

Post by pavel_lishin »

manfredo wrote: post #197
pavel_lishin wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where in the article did it state that people's activities were being tracked? How about this part, that verbatim says that's what the landlord used the currently-installed cameras for? > In order to let neighbors who might not have seen the letter know what was potentially coming, five tenants convened in the lobby of one of the two buildings on a late October morning to spread the word. A few days later, those fi…

None of that says that the facial recognition system was used to identify the tenants. From what it looks like this happened without any use of the facial recognition system. It looks like a security guard staring at cameras all day saw something that looked suspicious. Here's a thought: maybe if facial recognition was used, all of the people in the halls would be recognized as tenants and wouldn't have been bothered…

> maybe

Why are we bending over so hard to take management's side? This is the management that acted counter to the law and counter to what the security camera was showing:

> New York State law, in fact, grants tenants the right to meet peacefully in nearly any location in a building as long as they are not obstructing passageways. Management maintains that tenants were getting in the way even if the pictures did not clearly indicate that.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#212

Post by baybal2 »

robocat wrote: post #177
baybal2 wrote: post #69

We have a face recognition lock in the office, there is one guy for whom it simply doesn't work, and there is absolutely nothing special in his look. He says that phones with facial recognition unlocks also have hard time with him.

Do you make jokes about him being a vampire? Or is making that joke to a potential vampire a bad idea? Or is he 1/4 ghost - a genetic chameleon? Is there a scientific discovery to be made here, or is it just a bug?

maybe his face makes the algo to do division by zero somewhere, very likely something along those lines

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#213

Post by purplezooey »

scarface74 wrote: post #207
anoncake wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that software developers dont even appear on the hierarchy of needs. And of course the answer markets not working is government regulations.

Who can’t afford to live near where they work? Public service workers like teachers, policemen, garbage collectors, etc. All of those jobs are in demand all across the U.S. If they can’t find jobs in San Francisco (just as an example), they will go to a part of the country where they can find a job. Let the cities compete for them by offering a better salary vs cost of living equation. Once San Francisco can’t get en…

For example let's say there is lots of local demand for a lunch for $4.99. As a restaurant I can't afford to pay a living wage and still serve lunch for $4.99, but on the other hand, there is a supply of poor, desperate people who will live in substandard, fire-hazard accommodations, or two hours drive each way that will take the job. This person will be miserable and unhealthy. Does our community let that occur on a widespread basis, or do we say, sorry, more density, affordable housing and transit must occur in parallel? What happens without regulation is more and more of the former, which we are seeing now.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#214

Post by scarface74 »

purplezooey wrote: post #213
scarface74 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who can’t afford to live near where they work? Public service workers like teachers, policemen, garbage collectors, etc. All of those jobs are in demand all across the U.S. If they can’t find jobs in San Francisco (just as an example), they will go to a part of the country where they can find a job. Let the cities compete for them by offering a better salary vs cost of living equation. Once San Francisco can’t get en…

For example let's say there is lots of local demand for a lunch for $4.99. As a restaurant I can't afford to pay a living wage and still serve lunch for $4.99, but on the other hand, there is a supply of poor, desperate people who will live in substandard, fire-hazard accommodations, or two hours drive each way that will take the job. This person will be miserable and unhealthy. Does our community let that occur on a…

So you want your restaurant business to be subsidized by forcing landlords to take below market rates?

If you can’t profitably make a business work at the prices that people are willing to pay, you would start your business elsewhere. If business can’t afford to hire people because the cost of living is too high, they will start locating elsewhere. The people and the jobs will move.

Why does everyone have to live in San Francisco. Companies are already “rural sourcing” to cheaper parts of the United States where the cost of living is lower. There is no reason that software development and the startup ecosystem in particular has to be on the west coast.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#215

Post by Daishiman »

blfr wrote: post #59
alister wrote: post #10

One result of doors being controlled by facial recognition -- or any other kind of biometric system -- is that you have to get permission from someone whenever you have a regular visitor. You can no longer give your girlfriend, boyfriend, dog sitter, relatives, or whoever you wish a key or access card to your home. You have to enroll that person in the facial database. And whoever is doing the enrolling can ask for l…

You can't have unattended visitors. If you're there to let them in, they can visit as often as you like. Basically, turning this from an apartment to more of a long term hotel. Is it a fair trade for a rent subsidy? Will it become standard in all rentals?

What a world where you don't have family members come in to water your plants or feed the fish...

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#216

Post by pas »

pwg wrote: post #22
mLuby wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. Relatedly, does a landlord have the right to know when you are in your home? Because that's a side effect of this (which could already be possible by monitoring things like electrical usage). Asking in both legal and ethical senses (which I expect are different).

The article mentions this is to replace a "key-fob". "Key-fob" implies some kind of RF read of the fob, and a potential computer behind the scenes checking if fob serial X is authorized entry at this time. So the landlord likely already knows which fob's have entered the building at any given time. Presuming that most of the fobs are with their rightful owners, then the landlord knows mostly who is in the building at…

Not necessarily. All the fobs can share the same serial and/or the data content in them can be an exact copy.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#217

Post by pas »

Agathos wrote: post #138
mLuby wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. Relatedly, does a landlord have the right to know when you are in your home? Because that's a side effect of this (which could already be possible by monitoring things like electrical usage). Asking in both legal and ethical senses (which I expect are different).

Keeping your name on the lease and then subleasing it under the table is one of the classic scams when rent control is involved. I can understand where the landlord would want to know who is actually using it.

This is a problem everywhere in the world, not just with rent controlled apartments. (Of course, those are a lot more lucrative.)

However, I'd wager courts would side with tenants that their right to privacy and ability to distribute a key are more important than the landlord's ability to fight subleasing this way.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#218

Post by londons_explore »

dub wrote: post #105
closeparen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already accomplished by having difficult-to-duplicate keys or fobs for the building entrance, which is a pretty standard feature of apartment living. And yes, some management companies are very stingy with extra fobs, as a control against having extra people in the unit who are not on the lease, or Airbnb, or whatever. You can tell you are in a building with a lot of illegal extra tenants when the keyfob-cont…

In San Francisco the rent ordinance allows tenants to petition the rent board to lower their rent due to a substantial decrease in services if a landlord denies a request for a spare key. This seems like a reasonable policy that other cities with renters might benefit from, if they don't already have something similar.

Presumably the landlords then don't deny the request... They just make the process horrendously long and complex...

"Please fax this handwritten form to this foreign phone number and then you can collect the key from this office on the other side of town only at 3pm on a tuesday. Oh - now you've shown up we need ID, and we only accept birth certificates."

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#219

Post by m463 »

alister wrote: post #10

One result of doors being controlled by facial recognition -- or any other kind of biometric system -- is that you have to get permission from someone whenever you have a regular visitor. You can no longer give your girlfriend, boyfriend, dog sitter, relatives, or whoever you wish a key or access card to your home. You have to enroll that person in the facial database. And whoever is doing the enrolling can ask for l…

Having to ask permission for things we didn't used to is sort of the sea change of the computer age.

I would love to be able to run my own software on my iPhone in an unfettered way.

Re: A Landlord Wants Facial Recognition in Its Rent-Stabilized Buildings

#220

Post by dub »

londons_explore wrote: post #218
dub wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In San Francisco the rent ordinance allows tenants to petition the rent board to lower their rent due to a substantial decrease in services if a landlord denies a request for a spare key. This seems like a reasonable policy that other cities with renters might benefit from, if they don't already have something similar.

Presumably the landlords then don't deny the request... They just make the process horrendously long and complex... "Please fax this handwritten form to this foreign phone number and then you can collect the key from this office on the other side of town only at 3pm on a tuesday. Oh - now you've shown up we need ID, and we only accept birth certificates."

An SF landlord has 14 days to provide a key after being asked in writing. It's acceptable to deny the request for unlawful occupancy, but not for giving a family member, houseguest, or service worker access to your home.

For reference: https://sfrb.org/section-3713-keys

If they claim unlawful occupancy, you can invoke the Kim 2.0 amendments of the rent ordinance which basically prevent an SF landlord from denying you the roommates of your choice.

If a landlord denies a roommate under the Kim 2.0 amendments, you can almost certainly get your rent cut in half by petitioning the rent board.

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