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How not to hire a software engineer

tonsky.me

171–180 of 239 posts

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#171
post #87

Now I really want to know how I save myself before the candle burns through the rope.

Spit on the candle. Grab the rope in your teeth and just hang on until rescue comes. Lure another animal over with mating calls to distract / feed the lion. Swing back and forth by wiggling your feet and neck at the appropriate rate to swing yourself up onto the branch.

*note that it sorta doesn't matter because cats are notoriously good at climbing trees and likely wouldn't wait for you to fall.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#172
post #114

On the plus side: I wholeheartedly agree with all those points. On the contra side: Nothing of this really felt like it helped me. I found interviewing people absolutely horrible and almost never had a good feeling. People who seemed like they may have been a good fit didn't get offers for one reason or another, some people seemed awesome in the interview and then weren't. Overall I've been happy with the decisions I…

At my last employer, I sat in on an interview for a co-op with my boss. After asking the interviewee some questions the conversation went basically like this: Boss: Do you have any questions for me? Co-op: No Boss: Would you like to know about the company? What we do? Co-op: No I couldn't help myself from laughing. I know he's just a student, but he's still a 20 something adult. No interest at all, just looking to ch…

I just don't really get this attitude. What exactly you want me to ask assuming I know salary and position? General information about company is usually right there on the website. I am really not sure what exactly the hiring manager is supposed to be asked at that moment, especially by someone young who does not have enough experience to distinguish between lying hiring manager and the one that tells the truth.

I could see meaningful questions about vacation policy and overtimes and such, but that comes with experience and a.) youngsters wants pretend how they don't care bout weekends in work b.) companies lie about that sort of thing.

I know that this attitude exist so I will ask something, it is not about that. But, the exercise is mostly empty for someone who is inexperienced and does not fully know yet what are situations where he fit vs where he does not fit.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll judge them all the same because it's not illegal to give someone feedback. Unless you have discriminatory hiring practices in which case the judgement holds true, or your legal team is so far up their own and everybody else's ass, the judgement still holds true.

Yes, it basically is illegal to let a non-lawyer give someone feedback. Not literally, but negligent of a company to allow.

Can you elaborate? What do these laws actually say?

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#174

Lately I have done a few at home code challenges for companies. They usually take several hours. They are perfectly functional and use minimal code but, the only feedback I receive is: "we're not moving forward". They won't discuss anything with me. The only impression I get is that your company is terrible and I will never respond to your recruiters again.

I hate these take-home code projects, to a point where I won't do them for similar reasons that you mentioned ("we're not moving forward, we will keep your resume on file!"). It's sort of a selfish way of interviewing; to write good code for these projects, it can take me upwards of 8 hours. An engineer where I live (NYC) can fairly easily make $50/hour (usually more), so they effectively expect me to give $350-450 o…

> to write good code for these projects, it can take me upwards of 8 hours.

The good data science take-home assignments I've done suggest a 2-3 hour limit and they were correctly scoped for that limit, although technically there's no incentive for the candidate to stick to that limit.

The worst take home I did suspiciously did not have an expected time limit (but was due in 48 hours after issuing). It was extremely broadly scoped, and as a result it took 16 hours; even after a couple years as a data scientist now and familiar with time-saving tricks, it would still take 8 hours minimum if you weren't already familiar with the company's data.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#175

So these kinds of posts keep showing up. How are interviews for not-software-engineers conducted? ie. how do you interview for a business analyst role, or a sales and marketing role? I have to assume that those roles suffer from the same sorts of issues a SE job does -- that someone can talk a good game but not be able to perform in the role.

Research shows that the two best ways to screen candidates are a general knowledge/IQ test (which is mostly illegal in the US) and a work sample test.

The fact that a work sample test predicts work success makes a lot of sense - have them do the thing you want to pay them to do and evaluate how well they do it. Duh!

You should screen folks using the work that they are going to be doing for you. Are you hiring someone to code on a whiteboard? No? Then why are they doing that in the interview?

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#176
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my last employer, I sat in on an interview for a co-op with my boss. After asking the interviewee some questions the conversation went basically like this: Boss: Do you have any questions for me? Co-op: No Boss: Would you like to know about the company? What we do? Co-op: No I couldn't help myself from laughing. I know he's just a student, but he's still a 20 something adult. No interest at all, just looking to ch…

I just don't really get this attitude. What exactly you want me to ask assuming I know salary and position? General information about company is usually right there on the website. I am really not sure what exactly the hiring manager is supposed to be asked at that moment, especially by someone young who does not have enough experience to distinguish between lying hiring manager and the one that tells the truth. I co…

"What exactly you want me to ask assuming I know salary and position?"

"Who are your most important customers?"

"What is your monthly recurring revenue?"

"What is your best selling product?"

"What's one thing you like about working here?"

"What's one thing you don't like about working here?"

This isn't very difficult. Just requires a slight interest in the industry you plan to work in.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these take-home code projects, to a point where I won't do them for similar reasons that you mentioned ("we're not moving forward, we will keep your resume on file!"). It's sort of a selfish way of interviewing; to write good code for these projects, it can take me upwards of 8 hours. An engineer where I live (NYC) can fairly easily make $50/hour (usually more), so they effectively expect me to give $350-450 o…

"I typically write in a very functional lispy style (even when I did JavaScript), and while the overall understanding of FP has improved in the last couple years, a lot of the interviewers would simply not understand what I was writing, and ask me to write it "more object oriented"." Which is a good way for you to weed out companies where the developers are low to average intelligence. Not understanding basic functio…

In fairness, the times this happened was 2015, so about four years ago. Still, even by then it was getting to the "it's not ok to not know this" territory.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate these take-home code projects, to a point where I won't do them for similar reasons that you mentioned ("we're not moving forward, we will keep your resume on file!"). It's sort of a selfish way of interviewing; to write good code for these projects, it can take me upwards of 8 hours. An engineer where I live (NYC) can fairly easily make $50/hour (usually more), so they effectively expect me to give $350-450 o…

> to write good code for these projects, it can take me upwards of 8 hours. The good data science take-home assignments I've done suggest a 2-3 hour limit and they were correctly scoped for that limit, although technically there's no incentive for the candidate to stick to that limit. The worst take home I did suspiciously did not have an expected time limit (but was due in 48 hours after issuing). It was extremely b…

Even 2-3 hours is pretty high, expecting me to spend $100-150 of labor for it.

16 hours is kind of insane and you have my sympathies. My record is around 10 hours.

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#179
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors have to go through a rather grueling licensing process. The job interview is mostly about determining mutual interest. Doctors also need to go through periodic re-credentialing. To put it bluntly, when a doctor has credentials, you at least know that they're competent; and more competent than 2-4 1-hour quizzes.

Speaking as a licensed attorney, passing the bar does not mean that you're competent.

Then how would you go about identifying a competent attorney?

Re: How not to hire a software engineer

#180

I look to see if I can trust them to not do dumb things. That's really it. What's the ego, arrogance, competence, willingness to ask questions, interrogate things, redefine problems to be less work (or none at all). Do you see what's not there? Programming language competency. Database knowledge. Things like that. I've been hired as a Ruby programmer, I didn't know Ruby. I was hired for mainframes in the 90s - I had…

My experience has been that interviewers like you are rare. I may have reflected on my observations incorrectly, but it seems to me that depending on a newcomer to quickly learn a language and adapt is seen as a high-risk investment. I consider myself an adaptable person, and while I was able to make this impression upon prospective employers in my early days, they would always weigh this against the cost of training me for "longer" than the average employee.

In a sense, they were right. I have noticed myself increasingly comfortable with new codebases whenever I change jobs, so experience definitely counts for something.

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