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China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

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Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#61

Post by mirimir »

devoply wrote: post #53
mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

The god of humanism and human rights. We are right and Chinese are wrong for oppressing their own people with what amounts to racism and fascist nationalism.

OK, but why does our god beat their god?

Their god is a fuck of a lot older ;)

Is it just because we can? And that we'll kick their ass hard enough and long enough that they worship our god? That's cool, I guess. But we ought at least be honest about it.

And what if we can't? What then?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#62

Post by Brain_Thief »

skybrian wrote: post #57
Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

This is far too large a problem for individual buying decisions to make much of a dent. But if you're against trade, maybe tariffs will do it?

1) The societies of the world are composed of individuals. Individual actions, if appropriately cultivated and communicated, may become group actions. Individual actions absolutely matter.

2) At no point did I claim to be against trade.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#63

Post by FabHK »

By the way, great to see the Hong Kong Free Press on the HN front page. It's an independent, non-profit newspaper financed primarily by reader donations.

Hong Kong has basically only 3 English-language newspapers left: South China Morning Post ([1], since 1903, but now owned by the mainland Alibaba group), The Standard ([2], free, ad-financed), and HKFP.

Given the encroaching Chinese influence on HK (contra the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the "One Country, Two Systems" principle [3], which specify wide ranging autonomy of HK on internal matters until 2047), a free press in HK is enormously important to safeguard HK's freedoms.

(If you care about it, please support the HK Free Press! (I'm not affiliated.) Here:)

https://www.hongkongfp.com/support-hong-kong-free-press-2019...

[1] https://www.scmp.com

[2] http://www.thestandard.com.hk

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

EDIT: typos, add "One Country, Two Systems"

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#64

Post by frotak »

mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

There was a time when there were powers and authorities in the Western world that would silence dissent via violence and murder.

See Galileo and the Catholic Church as an example. Or the Inquisition. Or any number of other examples of absolute authority executed by a State or State based actors in the pursuit of silencing dissent and controlling discourse.

A fundamental component of American ideology is the protection of free speech and dissent. Pretty much unequivocally. E.g., the "old" and "different" culture of authoritarianism that controlled Western civilization was overturned to give individuals more freedom.

So far this dedication to individual liberty and freedom of thought and expression is a relatively short lived blip in human history - but arguing that Chinese culture is just "old" and "different" side steps the fact that on the one hand we see an evolving and changing culture that embraces the individual...and on the other we see a continuance of abusive authoritarianism that subjugates individuals in pursuit of preserving the status quo.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#65

Post by zanny »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15
ElBarto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be careful about the terms you use. Some terms should not be overused because overuse trivialises.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

You can also compare 1940s Russia which conquered eastern Europe and put most of Asia under its influence. Stalin starved and slaughtered millions.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#66

Post by noir_lord »

true_religion wrote: post #55
Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

Would you support a general government embargo on Chinese trade in your country?

I absolutely would and not just because of the way China treats it's citizens - putting all the global production of strategically important electronics in the hands of one country with a proven track record of well..almost everything seems like a fairly poor idea.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#67

Post by Brain_Thief »

kuzehanka wrote: post #60
Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

> Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. China is buying up realestate and farm land in every major western nation. China is buying critical infrastructure across the globe via the Belt and Road initiative[1][2]. China has become too big and too powerful to be stopped by mere consumer action. They are not planning to wage a war on d…

While I understand your point, I strongly disagree with the implication that individual actions are meaningless. People should not accept a "death by a thousand cuts" behavioral paradigm when it comes to moral decisions in the realm of consumption. Voting is a part of the situation, but voting is an individual choice just like purchasing decisions.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#68

Post by abc-xyz »

simonh wrote: post #22
abc-xyz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd say the goal should be to isolate China and make them suffer economically.. We can see what they've done to the people of Tibet, Hong Kong, Xijiang, those practicing Falun Gong and so many more. They're also stepping up their efforts of conquering Taiwan and the South China Sea.. the world can't keep turning a blind eye as their influence continue to grow.

Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. Arguably by making China more prosperous, we are empowering ordinary Chinese economically and eventually this could lead to broad demands for more political and social freedom. So it's quite possible sanctions would make the state more powerful wi…

I'd argue North Korea support the idea that isolation does work to the degree that they're unable to cause (significant) harm to people outside their own borders. I feel the goal at this point should be to protect Taiwan and the South China Sea. Move productions to less populous countries, kick out Huawei and other Chinese companies (and investments for that matter) that pose a threat. Seek to protect Hong Kong. We should've learned by now that you can't satisfy the Chinese government, they'll always ask for more as they become evermore powerful. If war is inevitable (I think civil war is far more likely by putting economic pressure) then rather now instead of waiting for them to conquer more countries and building/controlling more crucial infrastructure in foreign countries.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#69

Post by mirimir »

frotak wrote: post #64
mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

There was a time when there were powers and authorities in the Western world that would silence dissent via violence and murder. See Galileo and the Catholic Church as an example. Or the Inquisition. Or any number of other examples of absolute authority executed by a State or State based actors in the pursuit of silencing dissent and controlling discourse. A fundamental component of American ideology is the protectio…

Sure, I get that. That's why I came to the US. And I do believe that, for the most part, the US does display an honest commitment to those values.

But still, imposing your values on others is an iffy thing.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#70

Post by FabHK »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #52
simonh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is an economic slowdown and it does lead to challenges to the legitimacy of Communist rule, I think we'll find their source of legitimacy switches to the guns and jackboots variety PDQ. Honestly, is there any example ever where economic sanctions have forced a government to become less authoritarian?

> Honestly, is there any example ever where economic sanctions have forced a government to become less authoritarian? Arguably the Eastern Bloc and Soviet Union. If they had been integrated into the Western economic system on favorable terms [1], material conditions there may not have been as bad and may not have fell in the late 80s/early 90s. [1] Such as being allowed to buy things on credit or buy advanced technol…

South Africa's apartheid regime could also be cited as an example of sanctions and international isolation making a difference.
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