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China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

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Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#51

Post by mirimir »

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats.

I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't whataboutism. I'm calling bullshit on the US etc for "pot calling the kettle black" bullshit.

Also, although I'm not a huge fan of cultural relativism, it is true that Chinese culture is very old, and very different from European culture. Including the US and other former colonies, obviously. But maybe not so much from India and other former colonies in Southeast Asia.

But anyway, given that, what's the argument that we're "right" and they're "wrong"? Because God said so? But which God, then?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#52

Post by CharlesColeman »

simonh wrote: post #35
ardy42 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. > I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but it's plausible. I can see a case for symbolic sanctions though, something that's eye-catching but not necessarily economically impactful, as a way to draw attention to the issue within China. Except…

If there is an economic slowdown and it does lead to challenges to the legitimacy of Communist rule, I think we'll find their source of legitimacy switches to the guns and jackboots variety PDQ. Honestly, is there any example ever where economic sanctions have forced a government to become less authoritarian?

> Honestly, is there any example ever where economic sanctions have forced a government to become less authoritarian?

Arguably the Eastern Bloc and Soviet Union. If they had been integrated into the Western economic system on favorable terms [1], material conditions there may not have been as bad and may not have fell in the late 80s/early 90s.

[1] Such as being allowed to buy things on credit or buy advanced technology. IIRC, the Soviets were only allowed to trade with hard currency, and they were forbidden from buying most of the things they actually wanted.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#53

Post by devoply »

mirimir wrote: post #51

As much as I tend to hate on China for its extreme policies of government censorship and social control, it's somewhat disingenuous to tar them for lobbying (even ~threatening) other UN diplomats. I mean, doesn't ~everyone do it? Having been interested in the Palestinian issue, and the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, it's pretty clear that Israel and the US have done just what China is doing. And no, this isn't wha…

The god of humanism and human rights. We are right and Chinese are wrong for oppressing their own people with what amounts to racism and fascist nationalism.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#54

Post by CharlesColeman »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #45
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

Why do you believe 1940's Germany is worse than China? 2.5 million people already died as a direct result from Mao's Great Leap Forward, with another 40 million (!) dying from famine during that same period, caused by said cultural revolution. Nazi Germany was not the greatest loss of life by a government.

> Nazi Germany was not the greatest loss of life by a government.

But it is the government that's become nearly synonymous with human rights violations (in the West, at least).

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#55

Post by true_religion »

Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

Would you support a general government embargo on Chinese trade in your country?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#56

Post by zanny »

simonh wrote: post #8
oxycontinOD wrote: post #5

A painful but important reminder about Lu Guang, a photojournalist captured by the goverment for taking photos of the damage suffered by countryman (and nature) due pollution from chinese factories: https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7 Something needs to be done, I'm not sure what but inaction will only aggravate the situation.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

North Korea persists because China keeps it alive. If China joined the rest of the world in sanctions and a no trade policy NK would fold in a week.

The USSR largely collapsed due to its economic isolation. It couldn't keep pace with the wests military industrial machine and because the west predominantly sanctioned the USSR they couldn't grow to compete.

Regimes do not last in total economic isolation for long. They require someone to prop them up. Of course, getting the whole world to ban trade with China would be infeasible if for no other reason than China already has enough influence in nations around the world to override the will of Europe and North America. Most of Southeast Asia and Africa would still do business with China even under UN sanctions because they are under the influential heel of the CCP at this point.

You can look at Russia today as an example of sanctions somewhat working - continued sanctions by the west against Putins governments atrocities have not overthrown him yet but they certainly sow seeds of discontent against him. Its why Russia is spending so much effort to meddle in western elections, they can see the writing on the wall that a strong and hostile west will eventually erode Putin and the Russian mafias ability to hold dictatorship over the country.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#57

Post by skybrian »

Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

This is far too large a problem for individual buying decisions to make much of a dent. But if you're against trade, maybe tariffs will do it?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#59

Post by whatthewhatwhat »

ElBarto wrote: post #19
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

This is a ridiculous comparison. China is not expanding and does not systematically imprison minorities (and as you know the holocaust is in another league altogether). The point of my previous comment is also to avoid such comparisons that are unhelpful, to say the least. Don't overuse those terms (holocaust, nazi, etc)

China certainly is expanding. It just signed an economic deal with Italy. It's been making economic deals with poor African countries, indebting them to China, for years. It has plans to "reunite" with Taiwan in time for its next centennial celebration. These are just a few examples. You're either ignorant or lying.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#60

Post by kuzehanka »

Brain_Thief wrote: post #32

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggress…

> Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them.

China is buying up realestate and farm land in every major western nation. China is buying critical infrastructure across the globe via the Belt and Road initiative[1][2]. China has become too big and too powerful to be stopped by mere consumer action. They are not planning to wage a war on democracy, they're planning to simply subsume it with soft power and emigration.

To stop China's hellish vision of the future from becoming reality, the leaders of the developed world need to hit it with trade controls as hard as they did Cuba. But so far it seems that everyone is choosing to sell out their own country for those sweet Chinese RMB[3].

I see the sign of the times when I go to the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere (Chadstone, Melbourne, Australia) and see little stands advertising AU realestate in all-Chinese banners, staffed by Chinese agents who don't even speak English. The citizens of the country they're selling are not worth talking to.

[1] https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la...

[2] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2016/04/16/...

[3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-h...

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