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China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

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Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#31

Post by b_tterc_p »

ElBarto wrote: post #19
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

This is a ridiculous comparison. China is not expanding and does not systematically imprison minorities (and as you know the holocaust is in another league altogether). The point of my previous comment is also to avoid such comparisons that are unhelpful, to say the least. Don't overuse those terms (holocaust, nazi, etc)

> does not systematically imprison minorities

What about these ones?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#32

Post by Brain_Thief »

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario.

At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous.

Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. Stop using their software. Nine times out of ten you don't need it. Don't support corporations that enhance the efficiency of the Chinese government's oppression in the name of profits. Don't accept the idea that it's okay for giant corporations to bend to whatever demands (however ominous) an authoritarian government hands to them in the name of profit.

Exceptions arise, and no one's behavior is perfect. But the 1/10 case where you absolutely MUST use a certain surveillance app or buy a certain widget made by slaves in another country is not an excuse for throwing your hands up and capitulating in the other nine cases you encounter every day. Many of us on HN have the option to not support oppressive systems - I implore you to exercise that option so that others may gain the ability to choose as well.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#33

Post by salawat »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #29
simonh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

Isolation doesn’t work (as you point out with NK). Integration also doesn’t seem to be working (well, not nearly as fast as those in the Nixon era and since then hypothesized). My view is that isolation is a worse route, because mostly the poor suffer from economic isolation. I really like the strategy of targeting the powerful politicians/rich benefactors using tools like the magnitsky act. Those people shouldn’t ha…

Which is completely useless unless you also lock them out of the western financial system.

The lack of physical presence isn't that big a showstopper anymore. Throw in an inability to exercise financial clout anymore though, and things will rapidly change.

There likely isn't much political will for that though, and I'm fairly certain it could only come after a period of weaning the economy off the luxury of cheap as dirt manufacturing/shipping.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#34

Post by endorphone »

China has begun quite a campaign of rogue diplomacy, a good example being the continued saga of Canada abiding by its treaty with the United States and holding Meng Wanzhou for due process of an extradition for charges laid in the US.

In retaliation China has jailed a number of Canadians on invented charges and are now leveraging trade in a farcical manner, claiming that Canadian products are contaminated (which is rich coming from China) to try to lever the government.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#35

Post by simonh »

ardy42 wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. Arguably by making China more prosperous, we are empowering ordinary Chinese economically and eventually this could lead to broad demands for more political and social freedom. So it's quite possible sanctions would make the state more powerful wi…

> Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. > I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but it's plausible. I can see a case for symbolic sanctions though, something that's eye-catching but not necessarily economically impactful, as a way to draw attention to the issue within China. Except…

If there is an economic slowdown and it does lead to challenges to the legitimacy of Communist rule, I think we'll find their source of legitimacy switches to the guns and jackboots variety PDQ. Honestly, is there any example ever where economic sanctions have forced a government to become less authoritarian?

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#36

Post by spacehunt »

ardy42 wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. Arguably by making China more prosperous, we are empowering ordinary Chinese economically and eventually this could lead to broad demands for more political and social freedom. So it's quite possible sanctions would make the state more powerful wi…

> Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. > I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but it's plausible. I can see a case for symbolic sanctions though, something that's eye-catching but not necessarily economically impactful, as a way to draw attention to the issue within China. Except…

China's economic growth is already slowing. Isolating them now just gives them a convenient excuse, "look the Americans really want us to remain poor".

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#37

Post by boomboomsubban »

ardy42 wrote: post #23
boomboomsubban wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it?

> Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it? All the future citizens of the world, but especially those people living in smaller, more liberal, neighboring countries. My biggest worry with authoritarianism is that is seems we may be reac…

>All the future citizens of the world, but especially those people living in smaller, more liberal, neighboring countries. My biggest worry with authoritarianism is that is seems we may be reaching a technological tipping point that will make these regimes even harder to replace than in the past

So you're worried they'll use their influence to support authoritarian regimes in other countries? Maybe we should stop doing that ourselves before we start playing with Chinese lives.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#38

Post by Cthulhu_ »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #29
simonh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

Isolation doesn’t work (as you point out with NK). Integration also doesn’t seem to be working (well, not nearly as fast as those in the Nixon era and since then hypothesized). My view is that isolation is a worse route, because mostly the poor suffer from economic isolation. I really like the strategy of targeting the powerful politicians/rich benefactors using tools like the magnitsky act. Those people shouldn’t ha…

Why restrict it to western countries? The UN is made to form a huge bloc of countries that should be aimed at preventing the atrocities seen in WW2 (and before); so far, given what's happening in NK, China and the US it doesn't seem very effective.

(I included the US because it has the highest incarceration rate of the world which disproportionately affects a racial minority; if prisons were relabeled as re-education camps and what happens in there is hidden from the world they would be on par with what China is doing atm)

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#39

Post by simonh »

ardy42 wrote: post #23
boomboomsubban wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it?

> Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it? All the future citizens of the world, but especially those people living in smaller, more liberal, neighboring countries. My biggest worry with authoritarianism is that is seems we may be reac…

I worry about this too. Pervasive surveillance and monitoring of communications could make an authoritarian regime super-stable and impossible to reform from within.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#40

Post by sidibe »

pleasecalllater wrote: post #2

I'm wondering if people in China can see this website in Google. Edit: to people who are downvoting this... check this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19540562

People in China can't see Google. People here have it so backwards about which companies are most cooperative with China
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