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China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

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Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#21

Post by devmunchies »

ElBarto wrote: post #19
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

This is a ridiculous comparison. China is not expanding and does not systematically imprison minorities (and as you know the holocaust is in another league altogether). The point of my previous comment is also to avoid such comparisons that are unhelpful, to say the least. Don't overuse those terms (holocaust, nazi, etc)

using the term "holocaust" is a comparison? Nobody has a monopoly on that term.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#22

Post by simonh »

abc-xyz wrote: post #14
simonh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

At this point I'd say the goal should be to isolate China and make them suffer economically.. We can see what they've done to the people of Tibet, Hong Kong, Xijiang, those practicing Falun Gong and so many more. They're also stepping up their efforts of conquering Taiwan and the South China Sea.. the world can't keep turning a blind eye as their influence continue to grow.

Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated.

Arguably by making China more prosperous, we are empowering ordinary Chinese economically and eventually this could lead to broad demands for more political and social freedom. So it's quite possible sanctions would make the state more powerful with respect to individual citizens, not less.

I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but it's plausible. I can see a case for symbolic sanctions though, something that's eye-catching but not necessarily economically impactful, as a way to draw attention to the issue within China.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#23

Post by ardy42 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #17
abc-xyz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd say the goal should be to isolate China and make them suffer economically.. We can see what they've done to the people of Tibet, Hong Kong, Xijiang, those practicing Falun Gong and so many more. They're also stepping up their efforts of conquering Taiwan and the South China Sea.. the world can't keep turning a blind eye as their influence continue to grow.

Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it?

> Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it?

All the future citizens of the world, but especially those people living in smaller, more liberal, neighboring countries. My biggest worry with authoritarianism is that is seems we may be reaching a technological tipping point that will make these regimes even harder to replace than in the past [1]. Whatever can be done to prevent that is good in my book, especially since I think it's unlikely that these regimes will be content to limit their influence to their borders.

[1] Nuclear weapons make them impossible to replace militarily, and digital surveillance + secret police may eventually make it impossible for internal change to replace them.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#24

Post by BubRoss »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #17
abc-xyz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd say the goal should be to isolate China and make them suffer economically.. We can see what they've done to the people of Tibet, Hong Kong, Xijiang, those practicing Falun Gong and so many more. They're also stepping up their efforts of conquering Taiwan and the South China Sea.. the world can't keep turning a blind eye as their influence continue to grow.

Suffering economically will likely lead to far more suffering for various Chinese people, and the end result has a good chance of being a civil war. Is this worth preventing their influence from growing? Who benefits from it?

That's a bold prediction when they are imprisoning so many people.

I'm not sure why a flimsy assumption of the future for something that can't reliably be quantified would be used as a rationalization to do nothing.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#25

Post by spork12 »

simonh wrote: post #8
oxycontinOD wrote: post #5

A painful but important reminder about Lu Guang, a photojournalist captured by the goverment for taking photos of the damage suffered by countryman (and nature) due pollution from chinese factories: https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7 Something needs to be done, I'm not sure what but inaction will only aggravate the situation.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

Unfortunately, the US is so economically dependent on China that we would just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#26

Post by sleazy_b »

I think we will see what is happening to the Uighurs now as a genocide in that it is an intentional destruction of a culture and people. I'm not sure what can be done when a country so powerful as China is the perpetrator but it's pretty terrible to watch as it is happening.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#27

Post by wallace_f »

oxycontinOD wrote: post #5

A painful but important reminder about Lu Guang, a photojournalist captured by the goverment for taking photos of the damage suffered by countryman (and nature) due pollution from chinese factories: https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7 Something needs to be done, I'm not sure what but inaction will only aggravate the situation.

Yea but China has big government, authoritarian command and control, extreme gun control and the kinds of reductions in civil rights and individual liberty that we are marching towards in America. It's time to stop fearing the consequences and just embracing it.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#28

Post by ardy42 »

simonh wrote: post #22
abc-xyz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd say the goal should be to isolate China and make them suffer economically.. We can see what they've done to the people of Tibet, Hong Kong, Xijiang, those practicing Falun Gong and so many more. They're also stepping up their efforts of conquering Taiwan and the South China Sea.. the world can't keep turning a blind eye as their influence continue to grow.

Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated. Arguably by making China more prosperous, we are empowering ordinary Chinese economically and eventually this could lead to broad demands for more political and social freedom. So it's quite possible sanctions would make the state more powerful wi…

> Isolation just doesn't work though, as I pointed out it's made zero difference to North Korea's behaviour and China was doing all the same things back when it was isolated.

> I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but it's plausible. I can see a case for symbolic sanctions though, something that's eye-catching but not necessarily economically impactful, as a way to draw attention to the issue within China.

Except my understanding is that the modern PRC regime has staked its legitimacy on increasing living standards and economic development, since they de facto abandoned Communism. The regime itself fears an economic slowdown could loosen its grip on power.

So, relatively onerous economy-slowing sanctions tied to demands for liberalization [1] may actually work pretty well, forcing the authoritarians to pick their poison.

[1] e.g. make things like opening up the great firewall a condition for lowering tariffs/loosening embargoes.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#29

Post by mensetmanusman »

simonh wrote: post #8
oxycontinOD wrote: post #5

A painful but important reminder about Lu Guang, a photojournalist captured by the goverment for taking photos of the damage suffered by countryman (and nature) due pollution from chinese factories: https://imgur.com/gallery/XwzByK7 Something needs to be done, I'm not sure what but inaction will only aggravate the situation.

I really do appreciate the sentiment, but with an authoritarian regime like this there's isn't an awful lot other nations can practically do that would actually make a difference. Just look at North Korea, it's under total economic lock-down but still continues along on it's brutally oppressive way. It's not that I'm happy about it, any suggestions welcome.

Isolation doesn’t work (as you point out with NK).

Integration also doesn’t seem to be working (well, not nearly as fast as those in the Nixon era and since then hypothesized).

My view is that isolation is a worse route, because mostly the poor suffer from economic isolation.

I really like the strategy of targeting the powerful politicians/rich benefactors using tools like the magnitsky act. Those people shouldn’t have the privledge of traveling to western countries.

Re: China warned others not to attend UN meeting on Xinjiang human rights violations

#30

Post by samch »

ElBarto wrote: post #19
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is to evoke comparison with 1930s Germany, which expanded into neighboring territory and systematically imprisioned minorities. Hopefully China changes direction before it becomes 1940s Germany

This is a ridiculous comparison. China is not expanding and does not systematically imprison minorities (and as you know the holocaust is in another league altogether). The point of my previous comment is also to avoid such comparisons that are unhelpful, to say the least. Don't overuse those terms (holocaust, nazi, etc)

China is looking to expand. China already took Tibet. It claims Taiwan. Now, it’s making audacious claims over the South China Sea - even going so far as to build artificial islands to cement their claims.
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