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The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

nytimes.com

131–140 of 203 posts

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#131
post #109
post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

It appears wasteful. Being deadlocked, spending multiples of $100k on ceremonies. The group should be promoting the language and getting people excited about it's use. Instead, French speakers feel guilty when they say 'email' instead of 'courriel' because an ineffectual body refused to admit an Englishism into the language. This holds the language back. Languages are fluid, living breathing things and that aspect sh…

They should feel very guilty of confusing "numerique" and "digital" all the time.

In French, 'numerique' generally means 'digital' and 'digital' only means related to fingers (e.g. fingerprint is 'empreinte digitale').

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#132
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all words the equivalent of computer - "ordinateur" was invented by académie française from a sollicitation of IBM and it stuck. Everyone uses this word now.

Yes, this is national pride about this one word that stuck, but here is what "ordiner" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_orders Meanwhile the rest of the world use a word that refers to computation, and french has even a "computationnel" word because "ordinateur" doesn't make much sense. A computer is not something that gives holy orders.

> A computer is not something that gives holy orders.

Unless it's running HolyC and TempleOS, of course! Rust and RedoxOS may be the best human-made solutions, but a computer with TempleOS is the only true "ordinateur", because it directly communes with G-d.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#133
post #109
post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

It appears wasteful. Being deadlocked, spending multiples of $100k on ceremonies. The group should be promoting the language and getting people excited about it's use. Instead, French speakers feel guilty when they say 'email' instead of 'courriel' because an ineffectual body refused to admit an Englishism into the language. This holds the language back. Languages are fluid, living breathing things and that aspect sh…

> French speakers feel guilty when they say 'email' instead of 'courriel'

"Courriel" is the word proposed by the Québec institution (OQLF). It is used in France as well, but not as much as "email", which nobody feels guilty about.

Courriel is also a newly coined word, and an elegant one as well, so it fits right into your "languages are fluid, living breathing things" remark.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#134
post #22
post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

> As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. But deciding what the prestige dialect is is inherently classist and racist, and reifying that cl…

You know what rubs MY nose? When people misuse language and then treat any correction as something snobby.

Typical argument from someone who just wrote "could of", or mixed you're with your: "Oh but language is to communicate, and you understood what I'm saying so it worked so stop being snobby about it"

gah, makes my blood boil

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#135
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is to sit back and make choices that make sense when there is a conflict or that are more aligned with the rest if the language, and avoid messes like "biweekly".

English speakers themselves are quite capable of sorting this kind of thing out for themselves without waiting for the deliberations of the appointed whose decisions they'll probably ignore anyway - as do the French, one gathers. Life and English are both messy but we muddle through.

If you see biweekly somewhere, it is impossible to know what it means without more explanations, even context isn't enough. This has been like this for years and nobody's even tried to fix it.

What is the point of having such confusion?

Also, why having dictionaries at all? And who decides which one is right?

Why not have a body made up of experts who make that decisions once and for all when natural evolution leads to bad results?

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#136
post #20

As a french guy, I sense some kind of disdain for the Académie Française that I don't really get. The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people, and the role of the Académie is merely to decide what should or shouldn't be set in stone in the dictionary. And in fact the usage of the french language is quite diverse, even in France. You can have regiona…

So here's my knee-jerk attitude:

To the modern non-French speaker with a brief understanding of language evolution, the Académie sounds like something that is ill-conceived, arrogant and doomed to stagnate thought and culture in an attempt to keep France in the 17th century. Languages don't work like the Académie is designed to maintain, and this simple fact will ultimately lead to its irrelevance. Which means that the continued existence of the body seems pointless.

As an Anglophone, there's a certain sense of superiority we feel in that we're basically able to go pretty much anywhere and find somebody who speaks passable English and we don't have an equivalent body. Whenever the Académie comes up in the Anglosphere, it's in the context of an attempt to prevent an English word or phrase from officially entering the language, even though (and this is the attitude) "any stupid person can see that English won out and why not just let the loan-words in".

So that's my knee-jerk attitude, being entirely honest.

However, there's a deep rooted insecurity that's built into many English speakers. The paradox and complexity in the attitude is that English is basically a language of mostly loan words. And due to history, we inherited various modes of the language that represent various social class structures...one of the oldest was the split between the Germanic roots of English and the French (Norman) roots of English in the 11th century. To this day, the Latin or French root words are considered "superior" to the Germanic or Old-English equivalents. In some cases, the Germanic roots are considered "forbidden" while the upper-mode equivalents are considered okay to say in perfectly polite conversation. For example, "fuck" and "fornicate". This insecurity, and the modern global dominance of English (which happily uses "lingua franca" to describe itself) means internet posts about the Académie are bound to make fun of it.

But I think it also stems from not understanding in any way the historic reasons such a body was formed, maintained, and then reinstated when it was abolished during the revolution. It's virtually incomprehensible to the modern Anglophone to understand that France in the 17th century had such a diverse linguistic landscape that travel from one village to another meant needing a translator.

This post on /r/AskHistorians was incredibly enlightening to me and has completely turned around many of my earlier feelings about the Académie: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7u8oyk/how_t...

That thread is full of incredible information that I was almost entirely ignorant of and as I read the various follow ups, especially the ones about Napoleon, I realized how important a unified language was for military and economic matters.

From the link "As late as 1863, "a quarter of all army recruits were said to speak 'patois' and nothing else," Robb writes.

This often didn't last long. There are many reports of soldiers learning French while in military service, because of the necessity of communication and orders.

But "men returning from the army quickly reverted to their native tongue. A man who came home to Cellefrouin near Angoulême in 1850 after seven years in the army and thirty years in America was speaking the patois of his boyhood again within a few days."

This wasn't a universal case, however. McPhee notes the young men of Mazières who came back home from military service in the 1870s "determined, as a sign of their worldliness, no longer to speak patois" (220).

As late as 1914, "there are several reports of Breton soldiers being shot by their comrades in the First World War because they were mistaken for Germans or because they failed to obey incomprehensible orders.""

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#137
post #79
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? Especially when they talk in such pompous way: "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest". That doesn't sound like someone I would chose to guard…

> Ah - you don't think it's a little off that a tiny, obscure and exclusive group of 70-100 year olds, dressed up in costumes from a bygone era, gets to decide what goes into your official dictionary? No. > "Words shoot up like geysers from your pen, tumble in cascades, swirl about, bump into each other, are never at rest" Better that, than the mix of pop culture references and business weasel words, the English have…

> Better that, than the mix of pop culture references and business weasel words, the English have become.

That makes little sense. Anyway, I'm going to go and synergise my Kim Kardashians.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#138
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of those have so much pomp and circumstance about their functioning and composition, though.

Stop hating on our classy habit vert. French people like having a history, as complex, bloody and sometime shameful it is. We are an old country and we have traditions. The english people have their royal family, the US have their rusty nuclear warheads and we have the institutions de la république.

They all have rusty nukes shhhh.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#139
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The evolution of the french language is not dictated by the Académie, but rather by its use by the french people > the Académie is actively trying to find french equivalent for [convenient English words] that are coherent with the etymology of the french language Don't these two sentences you wrote contradict each other? From what I gather, you ARE saying that the French language IS dictated by the Académie, even t…

The effort of the Academy to create new words top-down (partly) inspired us to make a parodic website: https://bitoduc.fr/ I think french rappers (which are amazing imho) create more words successfully because they have a mechanics for popularizing the new words. They can have a word adopted with one song. My problem with the Academy is rather simple, if an entire profession use "deadlock" successfully, why complicat…

The word "interblocage" has been used for at least a century in mechanics though. It's just a very straightforward word that anyone could come up with to describe such a situation, and one that is immediately understandable to a French speaker. I'm pretty sure the confusion would come from using "deadlock" to someone who knows "interblocage", rather than the contrary.

Re: The Guardians of the French Language Are Deadlocked

#140
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are accidents, or maybe all of those are accidents, like it is mostly common in languages

Define accident. None of them seem particularly well thought out, or planned.

Who needs to plan a language? I love the mess that is English, there's so much history encoded in it - like how our words for common farm animals are Anglo-Saxon but the words for their meat are French, which is a snapshot of England being invaded by a French speaking Norman aristocracy who ate what the Anglo-Saxon peasants raised.

I love the different dialects that are developing of it. I particularly love my country's variant, enriched with Maori. "Kia ora bro" as a greeting captures our spirit nicely.

I love the fact that English "pursues other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary". It's a glorious organic mess. Much like humanity.

Of course, I'm glad I'm not having to learn it as a second language.

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