Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

DeepMind readies first commercial product

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 134 posts

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#71

Post by PavlikPaja »

LeanderK wrote: post #69
dontreact wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have talked at length with several people in the FastMRI project and in my opinion it is actually very dangerous. There is no feasible way to validate that such a model will not hallucinate normal tissue in the presence of a rare abnormality. The argument often used is that advanced reconstruction techniques such as compressed sensing have not required validating against very rare abnormalities, however when deep n…

I never understood these arguments. Isn't it like claiming self-driving cars via neural networks would never be possible because you can't test that the neural network would take the correct decision in every situation? I view the whole issue stochastically, with the immediate aim being to make (significantly) fewer errors than the current approach, which is having a human decide. I don't claim that I can design an e…

It isn't. It obviously is possible to drive a car. The problem here is you're trying to reconstruct image from less data than what is fundamentally possible. Compressed sensing is already as low as you can get, unless you prove it is possible to reconstruct the image accurately from even less data, then it's probably pointless to try use neural networks to decode it, and it's actually a bad idea anyway.

The problem with neural networks is that they can reconstruct something that looks "normal", not necessarily something that is accurate. The more abnormal the scan, the more likely it will get reconstructed as something that looks perfectly fine even when it's not.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#72

Post by LeanderK »

PavlikPaja wrote: post #71
LeanderK wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood these arguments. Isn't it like claiming self-driving cars via neural networks would never be possible because you can't test that the neural network would take the correct decision in every situation? I view the whole issue stochastically, with the immediate aim being to make (significantly) fewer errors than the current approach, which is having a human decide. I don't claim that I can design an e…

It isn't. It obviously is possible to drive a car. The problem here is you're trying to reconstruct image from less data than what is fundamentally possible. Compressed sensing is already as low as you can get, unless you prove it is possible to reconstruct the image accurately from even less data, then it's probably pointless to try use neural networks to decode it, and it's actually a bad idea anyway. The problem w…

I really don't know anything about MRI and their usage, i was mainly criticising that his arguments sounded like a lot of the arguments I've heard against other usages of ML-Algorithms.

What I meant: There's probably a medical reason why you want such a product and if a more readily available MRI saves (really significantly) more lives than the chance that it might miss some abnormalies which could lead to death, then I think we should allow it. That's what I meant with a stochastic view. If we, for example, only have a few scans per hospital available because the chance might exist that we missclassify something and lots of people get worse or delayed treatment because they are not high enough on the priority list to get access to a super-resulution MRI with a fidelity they don't really need (again, i don't know anything, just to illustrate my point), then I think something is wrong.

His argument just sounded dismissive without giving a, to my uninformed point of view, valid reason.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#74

Post by tozeur »

Cypher wrote: post #64
browsercoin2019 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was gonna complain that ft was behind a paywall. Ty.

you should still complain, this nonsense has to end.

Nonsense? Why do you say that? Is it nonsense that a publication needs to pay its employees? Is it nonsense that non-ad driven revenue allows a publication to focus on quality material versus optimizing for clicks?

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#75

Post by dekhn »

dontreact wrote: post #24
melling wrote: post #9

AI is being developed to make MRI scans 10x faster. https://www.forbes.com/sites/samshead/2018/08/20/facebook-ai... If DeepMind is trained on millions of MRI’s, we might have better preventative medicine.

I have talked at length with several people in the FastMRI project and in my opinion it is actually very dangerous. There is no feasible way to validate that such a model will not hallucinate normal tissue in the presence of a rare abnormality. The argument often used is that advanced reconstruction techniques such as compressed sensing have not required validating against very rare abnormalities, however when deep n…

nobody expects these systems to be perfect, which is why they have less validation against extremely rarely observed problems- the total impact is small enough that we don't prevent good systems from being approved.

Rather than saying "very dangerous", it would be safe to say that some individuals woudl not be well-served, but ideally, the overall health of the population would increase for a reasonable expenditure.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#76

Post by leesec »

easytiger wrote: post #58
fluffycat wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be actually better and much faster than humans for initial diagnosis. This has far greater implications, e.g. early detection actually reduces big burden from system.

That has been available since the 1970s. Healthcare is not a very complex compsci issue for 80% of cases. The problem is presentation of symptoms is highly subjective and needs highly complex interpretation that no AI will ever be able to achieve and deal with the liability conundrum

>that no AI will ever be able to achieve

The Luddites are back! We'll see how this prediction holds up in 30 years.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#77

Post by leesec »

dr1337 wrote: post #52

The cost blowout in healthcare isn't due to diagnosis or care but administrative costs. All these diagnostic AIs won't significantly reduce the cost of healthcare nor improve quality. What we really need is automated administration and billings to really move the needle and that's more human bottlenecked than technology.

> All these diagnostic AIs won't significantly reduce the cost of healthcare nor improve quality.

Thanks but this sounds ridiculous to me. Doctors are people too who really do get paid and really do make mistakes.

Using AI to learn from the best of the best will improve results overall, and automating tasks that expensive doctors did will reduce cost.

Yes we need to handle the exploding and ridiculous administrative costs, but clearly there can be gains on both fronts of this battle.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#79

Post by Dangeranger »

tozeur wrote: post #74
Cypher wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you should still complain, this nonsense has to end.

Nonsense? Why do you say that? Is it nonsense that a publication needs to pay its employees? Is it nonsense that non-ad driven revenue allows a publication to focus on quality material versus optimizing for clicks?

Most publications including the New York Times allow for a limited number of free article views before a paywall is imposed. That approach allows for casual viewers to get a feel for the content, without open access to all the material.
Post reply on HN