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After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

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Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#51

Post by isostatic »

IanCal wrote: post #27
isostatic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Westminster the voting system means you have to leave the chamber and go through into another room. Takes about 15 minutes. You get MPs that vote both yes and no. People saying they “made a mistake” only say such a thing because they regret it - they’ve probably never had anyone contact them about which way they voted in the past.

I'm not sure how a different chamber votes is all that relevant. > You get MPs that vote both yes and no. Do you? I've not heard of many issues with the process apart from things typically hundreds of years ago. > People saying they “made a mistake” only say such a thing because they regret it Or because they actually did make a mistake.

> Do you?

Not since Wednesday

https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/boths.php

> Or because they actually did make a mistake.

700 MEPs managed to vote correctly.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#52

Post by isostatic »

meowface wrote: post #32
isostatic wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit was all about stopping Muslims from coming to the UK and kicking out people with brown skin. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/30/it-is-terri...

The article does not support your claim. I also think it's exactly claims like that which directly lead to things like Brexit (and Trump).

They were saying: ‘We’re coming out of Europe and then we can get rid of you.’ I told them: ‘I’m a British citizen.’ I got citizenship 20 years ago after fleeing from Iraq. But they said: ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ve got dark skin.’ My 11-year-old daughter has heard this too.”

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#53

Post by meowface »

isostatic wrote: post #52
meowface wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does not support your claim. I also think it's exactly claims like that which directly lead to things like Brexit (and Trump).

They were saying: ‘We’re coming out of Europe and then we can get rid of you.’ I told them: ‘I’m a British citizen.’ I got citizenship 20 years ago after fleeing from Iraq. But they said: ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ve got dark skin.’ My 11-year-old daughter has heard this too.”

The fact that that incident occurred does not come close to supporting the claim you made. Maybe it would support a much more carefully constructed claim.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#54

Post by walterbell »

repolfx wrote: post #39
trickstra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly isn't plausible. Have you ever seen any livestreams or full recordings of parliamentary sessions? Not necessary from EP. They are voting whether to have 10 minute break. They are voting whether to accept the daily schedule. They are voting whether to follow with the next point in the schedule. They are voting whether to start voting. Those are the ones voted by raising your hands. Those are the ones…

The next video in the series casts serious doubt on that claim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2YYiig_s9w I will summarise the claims in the videos. • Many votes on amendments (not bathroom breaks) are done via quick visual inspection of the room, not electronic vote. It's possible to challenge the outcome and request an electronic vote instead: the video shows many examples of instances where this led to the vote…

Thanks, visitors to the EU should get a print copy of your comment.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#55

Post by dang »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #45
DINKDINK wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless if you think "copyright" increases or decreases quality of life, it is irrefutable that it violates Natural rights. If I memorize an illegal number [1], then I've made an copy that the corporate/state doesn't allow and consequently, I no longer own my body. Enforcement of copyright breaks the NAP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

I don't think you understand what a copy is. Memorising something isn't a copy. The Wikipedia page you linked to doesn't even list knowing an illegal number as a crime. It says process, utter, or transmit. I personally feel like you've tried really hard to find something that makes copyright look like a bad thing and something that breaches your human rights. But all I think is you don't know what you're talking abou…

Personal attacks will get you banned on HN. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#56

Post by johnnyfaehell »

dang wrote: post #55
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand what a copy is. Memorising something isn't a copy. The Wikipedia page you linked to doesn't even list knowing an illegal number as a crime. It says process, utter, or transmit. I personally feel like you've tried really hard to find something that makes copyright look like a bad thing and something that breaches your human rights. But all I think is you don't know what you're talking abou…

Personal attacks will get you banned on HN. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I believe that was a civil way to point out to someone that they're not coming across completely lacking knowledge on a subject and that they're coming across as a try hard. Personally, I believe that not stating this in scenarios like this is akin to bullying. Basically, the person is out of their depth instead of pointing it out, people carry on while smirking to themselves feeling superior while everyone else enjoys the embarrassment. To me, that is intellectual bullying. This is not a nice thing to do. Instead, the civil thing to do is to point out that the framing of their point is not good and this allows them to improve the framing of their point.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#57

Post by trickstra »

repolfx wrote: post #39
trickstra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly isn't plausible. Have you ever seen any livestreams or full recordings of parliamentary sessions? Not necessary from EP. They are voting whether to have 10 minute break. They are voting whether to accept the daily schedule. They are voting whether to follow with the next point in the schedule. They are voting whether to start voting. Those are the ones voted by raising your hands. Those are the ones…

The next video in the series casts serious doubt on that claim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2YYiig_s9w I will summarise the claims in the videos. • Many votes on amendments (not bathroom breaks) are done via quick visual inspection of the room, not electronic vote. It's possible to challenge the outcome and request an electronic vote instead: the video shows many examples of instances where this led to the vote…

And what makes you believe the next video in the series is not equally misleading? Many claims, but zero evidence. A lot of evidence on the contrary from other sources, such as the reports on the website of European Parliament. Or are you suggesting those are made up?

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#58

Post by trickstra »

lisper wrote: post #22
trickstra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly isn't plausible. Have you ever seen any livestreams or full recordings of parliamentary sessions? Not necessary from EP. They are voting whether to have 10 minute break. They are voting whether to accept the daily schedule. They are voting whether to follow with the next point in the schedule. They are voting whether to start voting. Those are the ones voted by raising your hands. Those are the ones…

> Copyright act was voted by names And yet there are ten EU parliament members on the record saying that they voted in favor of the copyright act "by accident": https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283837/europe-copyright... So there's clearly something wrong with the procedures.

Those ten MPs are basically saying "Sorry guys, I know I'm highly paid for this job, but I'm so incompetent at it that I can't even keep track of the bill numbers when I'm pressing the button. I was just too busy watching bikini girls on my phone. We are cool, right? Vote for me next time".

I mean siriously, put this job in relation to any other job with the same salary (including all benefits) and see if those people should have the capability and skills to read the bill, remember the number, and react correctly when the number is called even if that happens at a fast pace. If they can't do that, then they shouldn't be sitting there.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#59

Post by isostatic »

meowface wrote: post #53
isostatic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were saying: ‘We’re coming out of Europe and then we can get rid of you.’ I told them: ‘I’m a British citizen.’ I got citizenship 20 years ago after fleeing from Iraq. But they said: ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ve got dark skin.’ My 11-year-old daughter has heard this too.”

The fact that that incident occurred does not come close to supporting the claim you made. Maybe it would support a much more carefully constructed claim.

Britain’s vote to leave the EU was the result of widespread anti-immigration sentiment, rather than a wider dissatisfaction with politics, according to a major survey of social attitudes in the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-lates...

But it’s not European immigration

https://screenshot.net/2lxzmbn

I’ve been canvassing for the last week, the majority of people want brexit stopped. Of those that don’t the vast majority don’t care what we end up with as long as it stops the immigrants.

Re: After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues

#60

Post by repolfx »

trickstra wrote: post #57
repolfx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next video in the series casts serious doubt on that claim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2YYiig_s9w I will summarise the claims in the videos. • Many votes on amendments (not bathroom breaks) are done via quick visual inspection of the room, not electronic vote. It's possible to challenge the outcome and request an electronic vote instead: the video shows many examples of instances where this led to the vote…

And what makes you believe the next video in the series is not equally misleading? Many claims, but zero evidence. A lot of evidence on the contrary from other sources, such as the reports on the website of European Parliament. Or are you suggesting those are made up?

Why do you say zero evidence? Have you actually watched the videos? He provides video evidence from EP sessions backing up each of his many claims.

Then the second video I cite shows more MEPs from different countries and parties complaining about the same problems.

Also, we have the story actually being discussed in this thread, where numerous MEPs claim they accidentally voted wrong. So that's three sources.

I'm not sure the website of the European Parliament should count as a source when discussing the problematic procedures of the European Parliament. That might tell you what the EP wants you to believe but surely direct observation via video is more compelling? After all, a major claim (supported by video clips) is that the EP routinely counts its own votes wrongly, so official reports on voting must be taken with a pinch of salt.

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