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Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

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Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#91

Post by axod »

crux_ wrote: post #85
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's ignore all the mountains of evidence to the contrary and say that, on average, you are absolutely correct. Please, trot out some of the evidence. I can find plenty that agrees with his statement that men and women are wired differently. I'll get you started: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=men+and+women+... Aside from that, it makes zero sense from an evolutionary standpoint that both genders would ad…

I'm not interested in debating about just how different men and women are, and in which respects, and what parts are environmental and what parts genetic. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, which is why I said "let's ignore...". If a woman wants to move beyond what is 'normal' for her gender, why is it acceptable to discriminate against her? It doesn't matter a bit whether 'normal' is biological in origin or cu…

No one has discriminated against anyone.

If it was an advert for a nursery assistant which said "Do you love acting all mommy to your kids?" etc no one would care either.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#92

Post by crux_ »

axod wrote: post #91
crux_ wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in debating about just how different men and women are, and in which respects, and what parts are environmental and what parts genetic. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, which is why I said "let's ignore...". If a woman wants to move beyond what is 'normal' for her gender, why is it acceptable to discriminate against her? It doesn't matter a bit whether 'normal' is biological in origin or cu…

No one has discriminated against anyone. If it was an advert for a nursery assistant which said "Do you love acting all mommy to your kids?" etc no one would care either.

> No one has discriminated against anyone.

Then why are you spending so much effort arguing that it's acceptable to do so?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#93

Post by [deleted] »

crux_ wrote: post #92
axod wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has discriminated against anyone. If it was an advert for a nursery assistant which said "Do you love acting all mommy to your kids?" etc no one would care either.

> No one has discriminated against anyone. Then why are you spending so much effort arguing that it's acceptable to do so?

[deleted]

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#94

Post by CWuestefeld »

stonemetal wrote: post #77
crux_ wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take category (b). If a joke is truly inappropriate, is it really being a wet blanket to speak up about it?

People believe lots of different things. What is inappropriate to say in front of one person is not inappropriate to say in front of another. I believe that given their target audience nothing in the post was inappropriate. The slight but vocal response would seem to back that claim. To tell you the truth I must be so far in category B that I still don't understand the protest. Man has been used as a synonym for huma…

To be completely fair, the original ad that was referenced really was looking exclusively for males.

But does this mean that we should avoid all references to a past in which people were less enlightened? Must we pretend that the world was never that way, or pretend that everything that happened in that world was evil because of it?

Those who jump on the slightest whisper that men and women, or people of different races, or cultures, or whatever, might be different in some ways are deluding themselves. That's not to say that we can put a value on any of these differences, nor that these differences are any more than statistical tendencies and not applicable to individuals.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#95

Post by ErrantX »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #88
ErrantX wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be an awful headline; that's the sad thing. I submit that those taking issue with it (i.e. those pointing out a potential offence) are actually part of the problem. One solution would be t encourage as many innocent headlines as it takes till it simple doesn't matter whether you say men, women or Martian - it just means people.... (unfortunately that means people will be offended, so possibly not the san…

> Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :) Sure, but it betrays a certain cluelessness. I.e. It's not so much that this is an outrageous headline -- ZOMG off with their heads, public apology, blah blah. It's more a case of -- if they're clueless about this, then what else are they clueless about -- especially from the POV of a prospective female employee. E.g. I know of a swee…

BUT ... it's evidence that she may have other ideas that I may not agree with -- especially if she's my boss.

The cluelessness there is simply a lack of understanding that modern society is not the same as older society. You could, of course, take offence at what she said. But that is disingenuous.

However; if she treats you differently, directs it at you, makes it a bad thing - that is a problem to address. Sadly; by addressing every perceived offence it trivializes the issue and persists the problem.

Treating someone differently because they have attitude incompatible with current society (with the caveat, of course, that it is someone from the older generation) is problematic.

It is not right to consider things such as this as cluelessness. Because the cluenessness is in the people taking offence at very little. Actually; I can understand those taking personal offence. And indeed support a reasoned plea for more sensitivity.

But I can't agree with those pointing out possible or perceived offence. Sure, if there is intent to be sexist or imply female developers are not welcome, I am with you. But as there is not, this is simply creating a problem that does not exist. The cluelessness is in believing there is a problem here; there is only a problem if one is created.

I'm sure such things are done in good faith; but it is casing more problem and masking genuine offence.

There is never anything wrong in a word. Only in the intent.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#96

Post by Semiapies »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #33
jacquesm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers? Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. If I were a woman - which I'm not - I would definitely play that to my advantage in my application.

> Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. Why do minorities need to have a sense of humour about themselves? I do , but why do I have to to get into your club? FWIW, I've made countless raunchy jokes that would have gotten me flagged by HR in a staid shop. The thing is -- I take responsibility for that. I.e. if I offended someone it's not necessarily because they have no sense of hu…

Because if the majority can't universally dismiss someone else taking offense as "having no sense of humor", then they run the risk of admitting that they might have said something wrong, or that they could have said it in a better way.

Dangit, answering rhetorical questions again...

Personally, the funny part to me is people arguing that the "integrity" of a quote that's already been hacked up must be "maintained".

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#97

Post by mceachen »

Fjslfj wrote: post #58

I don't understand why they feel morally superior to people creating games. Have we devolved to the point where search engine marketing is considered so prestigious an occupation that its practitioners feel they are able to make jokes about others?

We've no beef against games. Or social networks. It's the dancing pigs that we are morally superior to.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#98

Post by Semiapies »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #82

I used to think that programmers were smart because we could talk to machines. The shallowness of a lot of the posts on this emotional and contentious topic reinforce what I've learned since: on average programmers are not that smart, which is why they need to talk to simple machines. Basically, try to discuss something that ends in "ism", and otherwise reasonable people go all ape-shit.

Well, yes - programmers are human.

The terrible thing to me is that this discussion is better than I'd see in non-programmer circles.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#99

Post by JabavuAdams »

ErrantX wrote: post #87
JabavuAdams wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to censor you -- I just want that to be clear. So, it's not a question of whether anything you say is "too offensive to be spoken". That was your interpretation -- not mine. Second, I don't believe that we can or should always avoid offending others -- we don't have a right to never be offended. What I am specifically focusing on is this attitude that "you shouldn't be offended" is co…

I think the rational argument is; if you are finding offense in an innocent phrase that was not intended (or even considered as) to imply a sexist attitude then you are a part of the problem you are observing. If someone said this to belittle or discriminate; that should generate an outcry. Sadly; it does not because examples like this get the same treatment. So, no, you probably shouldn't be offended by examples suc…

Disclaimer: Let me point out that I've entered what my wife calls "grad student mode". I'm continuing to argue this point out of proportion to how much it concerns me because I see what I believe is a flaw in your argument that you are failing to acknowledge or apparently unaware of. I want to debug your argument.

Okay, the crux here is this term "innocent phrase". By describing it as such, you're presupposing that which you're trying to prove.

A deeper analysis would be to ask "what evidence could convince me that this thing I consider innocent is actually not innocent, but a symptom of a systematic problem?"

Following from that -- if there is this thing that is hidden from me -- because I think it's nothing, what practices would tend to reveal these kinds of things, and what practices would tend to keep them hidden? Am I doing things that would tend to keep it hidden?

The broader issue is that irrational discrimination does not require ill intent, only a lack of understanding. People generally don't try to be assholes -- and yet they still will be unless they question the status quo.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#100

Post by Semiapies »

lian wrote: post #32

Dude, my literacy is pretty up there, and I didn't recognize the quote. I don't know that it would really tarnish its historical relevance to write "Men (or women) wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring". If their Steve Jobs quote is eligible for paraphrasing in order to seem original, I don't know why an old newspaper clipping isn't in order to seem like an equal-opportunity employer.

Or "Badasses wanted" or whatever. People who would have recognized the quote would still have recognized it.

I wouldn't immediately think this is a huge issue, but 1) I'm a guy, so I don't have to wait until a tiny footnote at the end to know that they're not trying to exclude me and 2) I can't help noticing all the frantic huffing and puffing by people with no stake in this company to defend the use of "men".

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