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‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

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Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#41

Post by vegannet »

Vinnl wrote: post #35
vegannet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

Technically meaningless outside of the legal process, but not morally. I'm fine with people assuming guilt when spitballing in a bar or something, but when it leads to mob justice, then I think it's very much something people should try to keep in mind. Sure, we no longer do actual lynchings, but innocent people's careers and relationships still get destroyed too often. Maybe not that large of a problem on a world sc…

Sure, it’s unjust that innocent people lose everything, but... every single day innocent people lose everything because of the legal system.

“Innocent until proven guilty” may be the best we have for a legal standard but it is far from perfect and applying it anywhere outside of the legal system is a mistake regardless of how you feel about innocent people losing their careers through the court of public opinion.

Outside of the legal system “innocent until proven guilty” is a very common cause of the revictimisation of victims.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#42

Post by newsgremlin »

ccjnsn wrote: post #5
mido22 wrote: post #2

Did they just misuse the word "irony"? Or am I just dumb and having trouble identifying which form of irony this is?

A film about financial scams was funded in part by a financial scam. Is this not ironic?

If the movie was supposed to vilify financial scams instead of glorifying it yes it would be ironic. But Wolf of Wall Street was very glorified. Even when you think the anti-hero is finally going to get his just deserts he gets off relatively easy for supposedly committing a serious crime.

Defining irony has been a continuous argument online, but this definition seems to capture the essence of irony - "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result."

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#43

Post by scruffyherder »

scandox wrote: post #10

There are stories about someone losing a five pound note that are more interesting than this. Guy blatantly steals loads of money. Celebrity. Spends it on bullshit. Celebrity. Large number. Celebrity.

Then you missed the whole point of selling pens.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#44

Post by scruffyherder »

zuminator wrote: post #40
OscarCunningham wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would definitely be ironic if a movie about honesty and integrity had been funded by a scam. This is sort of the opposite, the topic of the movie and its source of funding are thematically similar, rather than being in opposition. So rather than describing it as "ironic" I'd use an antonym like "fitting" or "congruous".

The ironic part is that one might expect the producers of a film about a massive financial scam to be more educated and diligent about avoiding the same pitfalls in their own production. The fact that they were so easily gulled while essentially lecturing the world through their film, that's amusingly contrary to expectations, hence ironic.

Gonzo movie making

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#45

Post by gcb0 »

braythwayt wrote: post #39
vegannet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

“Innocent until proven guilty” is an example of cargo-culting in personal ethics. Or if you prefer, following a process while forgetting the principle that drove the creation of the process in the first place. The principle is that for most people accused of a crime by the state, the state has much, much more power than the accused. To act as one check against abuse of that power, we establish a higher bar for convic…

the point you missed is how the media is almost as powerful as the state but get a pass to act like a small individual from your example.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#46

Post by Maro »

But the movie wasn't a scam/fraud. The funding was stolen, the result of fraud. The moviw would have been a fraud if they collect a lot of money for it claiming Leonardo DiCaprio will star and Scorcese will direct, and then that doesn't actually happen bc they blow the money on booze.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#47

Post by dragonwriter »

braythwayt wrote: post #39
vegannet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

“Innocent until proven guilty” is an example of cargo-culting in personal ethics. Or if you prefer, following a process while forgetting the principle that drove the creation of the process in the first place. The principle is that for most people accused of a crime by the state, the state has much, much more power than the accused. To act as one check against abuse of that power, we establish a higher bar for convic…

> The principle is that for most people accused of a crime by the state, the state has much, much more power than the accused.

It's not just state power but the combination of that with the kinds of harms that are inflicted as criminal punishment, which is why even the State does not bear the same high burden with mere civil claims.

> If homer is declared innocent under law because the state couldn’t prove its case, we don't go back to Frank and harass him for making a false claim.

In fact, Frank might still prevail against Homer in court on a civil claim for restitution for Homer having taken the sandwich.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#48

Post by dragonwriter »

gcb0 wrote: post #45
braythwayt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Innocent until proven guilty” is an example of cargo-culting in personal ethics. Or if you prefer, following a process while forgetting the principle that drove the creation of the process in the first place. The principle is that for most people accused of a crime by the state, the state has much, much more power than the accused. To act as one check against abuse of that power, we establish a higher bar for convic…

the point you missed is how the media is almost as powerful as the state but get a pass to act like a small individual from your example.

> the point you missed is how the media is almost as powerful as the state

“The media” collectively might have such power, but the media isn't a single entity like the state, and in any case neither the media nor the entities actually comprising it inflict criminal punishment, and even the State does not bear the high burden of criminal proof when it isn't trying to inflict criminal punishment.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#49

Post by dragonwriter »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #38
Vinnl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically meaningless outside of the legal process, but not morally. I'm fine with people assuming guilt when spitballing in a bar or something, but when it leads to mob justice, then I think it's very much something people should try to keep in mind. Sure, we no longer do actual lynchings, but innocent people's careers and relationships still get destroyed too often. Maybe not that large of a problem on a world sc…

There is a big difference between "Innocent" and "not guilty", and there is a reason that courts return a "Not Guilty" verdict, and not an "innocent" one. Plenty of cases fall within a hair's width of "beyond a reasonable doubt", and I very much doubt you are going to be inviting most of the people falling in that category over to meet the family, after all they are innocent until proven guilty, and likely all around…

> There is a big difference between "Innocent" and "not guilty"

No, there isn't. Innocence is precisely the absence of guilt; to be innocent is to be not guilty and vice versa.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#50

Post by jermaustin1 »

Looking at Admissions/Deposits/Fees for the private English boarding school that Low went to (Harrow School), I was surprised at how "affordable" it actually is. /I/ couldn't afford it, but for the level of access you are giving your child to the world of the elite, £30k doesn't seem like its all THAT much money.
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