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‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

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Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time someone uses the word "irony" on the internet someone comes along and makes this point. I suppose like stopped clocks these commenters must be right at least occasionally. This is not one of those occasions.

I blame Alanis Morrisette

There's definitely a case to be made that some of that song is situational, and if you peer and squint really hard it could even be a deeper irony:

https://www.salon.com/2014/05/08/what_everybody_gets_wrong_a...

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#32
post #17

allegedly

After having watched White Collar I usually say that about most accusations. We have all seen shows where an innocent person looks guilty. We somehow went from innocent until proven guilty to ridiculed and reviled until dead (and even that doesnt end it) regardless of the verdict or the reality.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilty” might lead you to believe — in many circumstances innocent defendants plead guilty.

Some people like to cling to the idea of innocent until proven guilty because it’s a nice sentiment that makes things easy — “I don’t have to make a decision about this person, I can just agree with the court outcome” — but it’s meaningless outside of the legal process. Many people do not have a clear understanding of what it takes to prove guilt in court (and also do not understand what can derail a conviction) and would be surprised to learn how difficult it can be in some situations where there is (to the layman) clear evidence.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#33
post #16

Directly related book recommendation: Billion Dollar Whale by Tom Wright and Bradley Hope, published 2018. They book follows the founders of 1MDB, the quasi Malaysia soverign wealth fund wbhose investments included the founding of Red Granite the producers of Wolf of Wall Street, from pre-1MDB days through to it's demise. Quite quick and easy, repeats itself a bit and imho falls apart/seems rushed at the end, but a f…

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> .

Wow. So helpful. Totally seeing the context now and the following reply makes just so much sense now...

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think about it, it's a pretty good musical trolling exercise. A song about irony which doesn't contain a single instance of irony.

Now, isn't that ironic?

Alanis has gone on tour with The Lonely Island, replacing Solange as the featured vocalist in their live performance of "Semicolon". When it gets to the part where she points out that all the lyrics are examples where colons would be used, TLI respond "Alanis Morrisette lecturing US about grammar? Isn't that a little... IRONIC?" And then they all segue into the chorus of "Ironic". Good times.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having watched White Collar I usually say that about most accusations. We have all seen shows where an innocent person looks guilty. We somehow went from innocent until proven guilty to ridiculed and reviled until dead (and even that doesnt end it) regardless of the verdict or the reality.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

Technically meaningless outside of the legal process, but not morally. I'm fine with people assuming guilt when spitballing in a bar or something, but when it leads to mob justice, then I think it's very much something people should try to keep in mind. Sure, we no longer do actual lynchings, but innocent people's careers and relationships still get destroyed too often.

Maybe not that large of a problem on a world scale, but it does feel very unjust to me.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having watched White Collar I usually say that about most accusations. We have all seen shows where an innocent person looks guilty. We somehow went from innocent until proven guilty to ridiculed and reviled until dead (and even that doesnt end it) regardless of the verdict or the reality.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

Yes, the whole idea that society as a whole must adhere to "innocent until proven guilty" is ridiculous.

How many people are sticking up for OJ Simpson?

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would definitely be ironic if a movie about honesty and integrity had been funded by a scam. This is sort of the opposite, the topic of the movie and its source of funding are thematically similar, rather than being in opposition. So rather than describing it as "ironic" I'd use an antonym like "fitting" or "congruous".

Ah, ninja'd!

The word "apposite" is much better than the ones I suggested.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

Technically meaningless outside of the legal process, but not morally. I'm fine with people assuming guilt when spitballing in a bar or something, but when it leads to mob justice, then I think it's very much something people should try to keep in mind. Sure, we no longer do actual lynchings, but innocent people's careers and relationships still get destroyed too often. Maybe not that large of a problem on a world sc…

There is a big difference between "Innocent" and "not guilty", and there is a reason that courts return a "Not Guilty" verdict, and not an "innocent" one. Plenty of cases fall within a hair's width of "beyond a reasonable doubt", and I very much doubt you are going to be inviting most of the people falling in that category over to meet the family, after all they are innocent until proven guilty, and likely all around great people right?

Legal process fails plenty of times, saying that you are morally obligated to believe in its judgements is insane. The only obligations legal judgements place are upon the people being tried and the apparatus of the state, nothing else.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having watched White Collar I usually say that about most accusations. We have all seen shows where an innocent person looks guilty. We somehow went from innocent until proven guilty to ridiculed and reviled until dead (and even that doesnt end it) regardless of the verdict or the reality.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, it is unreasonable and impractical to expect individuals to abide by it in their day to day life. Every day you are constantly making assessments on people based on the information you have, whether that’s in the context of a crime or otherwise. The justice system (in America especially) is not “fair” and does not treat guilt as the phrase “innocent until proven guilt…

“Innocent until proven guilty” is an example of cargo-culting in personal ethics. Or if you prefer, following a process while forgetting the principle that drove the creation of the process in the first place.

The principle is that for most people accused of a crime by the state, the state has much, much more power than the accused. To act as one check against abuse of that power, we establish a higher bar for conviction of a crime than for innocence.

But if Frank’s lunch is missing from the fridge, and he thinks Homer ate it, there is no massive power imbalance, so Frank doesn’t have the same burden of proof to decide to dislike Homer, or to accuse Homer.

Of course, if the state listens to Frank and decides to charge Homer with theft, then the state has a higher burden of proof to impose criminal consequences.

If homer is declared innocent under law because the state couldn’t prove its case, we don't go back to Frank and harass him for making a false claim. His standard for accusing Homer is lower than the state’s standard for laying charges.

After all, the state has investigators and attorney generals and grand juries and congressional panels and other apparatus for deciding whether to pursue a case in court.

We only go after Frank is he was truly reckless, not just on the basis of whether the state can meet the very high bar of proving the case in court.

People get this very badly wrong when it comes to accusations of sexual misconduct or rape from long ago. The standard for a person accusing another person is much lower than the standard for the state obtaining a conviction in court, and that is as it should be.

Re: ‘The Wolf of Wall Street’ film was also a real-life scam

#40
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A film about financial scams was funded in part by a financial scam. Is this not ironic?

It would definitely be ironic if a movie about honesty and integrity had been funded by a scam. This is sort of the opposite, the topic of the movie and its source of funding are thematically similar, rather than being in opposition. So rather than describing it as "ironic" I'd use an antonym like "fitting" or "congruous".

The ironic part is that one might expect the producers of a film about a massive financial scam to be more educated and diligent about avoiding the same pitfalls in their own production. The fact that they were so easily gulled while essentially lecturing the world through their film, that's amusingly contrary to expectations, hence ironic.
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