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Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

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Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#61

Post by crux_ »

stonemetal wrote: post #50
crux_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?

Yes, I believe that among developers in general and software startups in particular you will find an average to below average number of people with a sexism problem. You will however find an above average number of people who a) can't take a joke b) are somewhat bone headed in making inappropriate jokes. c) people who fall in to categories A and B at the same time.

Let's take category (b). If a joke is truly inappropriate, is it really being a wet blanket to speak up about it?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#62

Post by axod »

crux_ wrote: post #57
axod wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It absolutely does not IMHO. Our work just isn't appealing to most women.

Our work, or our culture? I'm going to say it's the latter, given that these aspects of it aren't appealing to me either.

I'm a male. I don't give a flying fuck about 'culture'. There is no culture. It matters not a jot to me. It never has. Why should it???

I grew up hacking away on my own in my bedroom floor hunched in front of a PC making raycasting demos at 4am. WTF has culture got to do with me doing that???

Are you trying to say that I started programming because I was embraced by some culture??? Are you saying that women are put off solely because of this mythical culture you speak of? Grow up.

Once you have a few kids, you learn that most differences in the sexes are genetic.

Women enjoy communicating. They're social beings on the whole. Sitting talking to a computer does not appeal. This is not rocket science. It's not environmental. It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build. If you can't see that, I'm not sure what hope there is for you.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#63

Post by JabavuAdams »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #49
JabavuAdams wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just kidding...people are too sensitive Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. While there are surely people who are too sensitive, the dismissal-of-complaint-by-invocation-of-oversensitiveness-by-non-aggrieved-group is a classic pattern too. I.e. it's easy to say someone's oversensitive, if you don't care about (or struggle against) what they do.

Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. Bullshit. Who, other than me, should have the right to decide if my statement is too offensive to be spoken? It is absolutely up to the individual to decide if someone else's offense at your statements or opinions is due to oversensitivity or you being wrong. Who else should decide, if not the individual with the opinion in question?

Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to censor you -- I just want that to be clear. So, it's not a question of whether anything you say is "too offensive to be spoken". That was your interpretation -- not mine.

Second, I don't believe that we can or should always avoid offending others -- we don't have a right to never be offended.

What I am specifically focusing on is this attitude that "you shouldn't be offended" is conventionally used to defend the status-quo, by people who are not disadvantaged under the status-quo.

This impedes reasonable discussion and learning. Obviously if I don't have a problem with X, I don't have a problem with X. The people who do have a problem with X seem kind of weird.

The only way we can reasonably start to figure out whether or not X is a problem is by listening honestly to a bunch of people affected by X. As people unaffected by X our opinion simply doesn't count as much -- until we've made a geniune effort to understand, rather than just dismissing.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#64

Post by ekidd »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #29
antongm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headliner is an apocryphal quote from Ernest Shackleton, leader of a doomed but famous Antarctic expedition in 1914. Nothing about the current state of tech was implied, nor about our desired employee pool. Obviously we welcome one and all.

It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. On the other hand, it's not just you guys -- i.e. you're no worse than the avg. tech company, FWIW. This is a classic example of the techie "we're a meritocracy, so we couldn't possibly be sexist" thinking that's so common. It's not the pat on the ass and glass-ceiling kind o…

It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message.

An apt way of putting it. Thank you. I wasn't familiar with the historical quote, and I only saw the headline on Hacker News. My initial reaction was, "Oh, good grief. Do we have to go through GenderFail, SmutOnRails, etc., every 15 minutes? I hate this conversation. It must be even less fun for female hackers, who can't win either way."

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#65

Post by eli »

davidw wrote: post #15

BTW, thanks for not using that "no comments" "YC company hiring" thing. It's really annoying not to let people discuss or ask questions about the opportunity in question.

But then again, most of the comments here don't have a whole lot to do with the job.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#66

Post by davidw »

eli wrote: post #65
davidw wrote: post #15

BTW, thanks for not using that "no comments" "YC company hiring" thing. It's really annoying not to let people discuss or ask questions about the opportunity in question.

But then again, most of the comments here don't have a whole lot to do with the job.

Yeah, they're not really making the best use of the opportunity:-/

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#67

Post by axod »

crux_ wrote: post #37
loire280 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is offended by a sexist title (this one is an apt historical reference as well) is probably going to have a problem in a startup where employees "[t]ell jokes that would make sailors blush". I bet a fair number of those jokes are sexist, too. This may be an effective filter for a sexual harassment lawsuit.

It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.

Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#68

Post by crux_ »

axod wrote: post #62
crux_ wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our work, or our culture? I'm going to say it's the latter, given that these aspects of it aren't appealing to me either.

I'm a male. I don't give a flying fuck about 'culture'. There is no culture. It matters not a jot to me. It never has. Why should it??? I grew up hacking away on my own in my bedroom floor hunched in front of a PC making raycasting demos at 4am. WTF has culture got to do with me doing that??? Are you trying to say that I started programming because I was embraced by some culture??? Are you saying that women are put o…

> It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build.

Let's ignore all the mountains of evidence to the contrary and say that, on average, you are absolutely correct.

Have you read Harrison Bergeron? Go on, it's easy to find on google. I'll wait.

Okay, done? Good. Now think about this:

No matter how correct you may be about genetic predestination, your sexist attitudes, and the actions you take based upon those assumptions and beliefs, create a deep moral wrong against any woman who dares to be exceptional.

Get it now, you fucking jackass?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#69

Post by Alex3917 »

crux_ wrote: post #60
Alex3917 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are a number of telling studies and statistics relating to gender issues, I think there is enough missing information that it isn't really possible to say much of anything intelligent on the subject. Given that we literally can't even tell the difference between a mental illness and a physical illness much of the time, I don't think science is ready to put a number on the percentage of the entrepreneurshi…

Statistics and studies will tell you information about the source of a gender gap . However, things like: * porn passed around chatrooms * rape jokes around the water cooler * comments on women's attractiveness every time one leaves the room, or every time a photo is posted online. * etc don't really need statistics, do they?

"don't really need statistics, do they?"

I know plenty of women who would have no problem with any of the above. These things happen at some startups, don't happen at others, some women wouldn't want a workplace like this, others would enjoy it. And this is just one of many, many factors. Again, without more information you can't really say anything intelligent.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#70

Post by crux_ »

axod wrote: post #67
crux_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.

Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?

If I were in the fashion world and felt that was an issue, why not?

I'm not a fucking wallflower.

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