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Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

nytimes.com

51–60 of 91 posts

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#51
post #16

"Should students be rewarded for being friendly, prepared, compliant, a good school citizen, well organized and hard-working? Or should good grades represent exclusively a student’s mastery of the material?" Because it would be tremendously difficult to grade the students on both things separately. One of the problems with schools and our society in general is the idea that you can take something complicated and dist…

"A grade can be regarded only as an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgment by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a student has attained an undefined level of mastery of an unknown proportion of an indefinite amount of material." -Dressel

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#53

Allowing teachers to choose the metrics upon which grades are based is much like a Third World dictator being able to print currency at will. Don't have the budget for classroom Kleenex? Just issue an incentive. Want your students to be compliant? You have an incentive that most of them (or at least most of their parents) will value. Until this school in Austin audited Teachers' ability to turn on the printing presse…

Only if a teacher's pay or reward depends on the grade they give their students. Otherwise, it is treating teachers like professionals who worked hard to get where they are.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#54
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attend a podunk university in southern Utah, where college life resembles an episode of 'Community', and the phenomenon you describe is apparent. 60% of the students are seeking acceptance into the nursing program. The school claims it is one of "the top nursing schools in the country". This claim is based on their graduation rates (for those accepted, around 80%). The school inflates their graduation rates by lean…

Note on side note: CNAs are not nurses.

Duly noted (and upvoted). I should have made it more clear--my belief is that their actions reflect poorly on the RN who supervises them.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#55
"Should students be rewarded for being friendly, prepared, compliant, a good school citizen, well organized and hard-working? Or should good grades represent exclusively a student’s mastery of the material?"

Well it depends on what school is for. To be perfectly honest, I'd say that organization and scheduling my time properly and working hard are far more important in college and in the workplace than mastery of subject matter that's ultimately outside my career field. I don't use what I learned in Physics or Calculus or German at my job or in my life, but I need to be organized and schedule my time (work time and personal time) effectively on a daily basis.

"The percentage of students who attend college is rising; 67 percent of high school graduates now enroll in some sort of post-secondary school after graduation (up from 43 percent in 1973). But the reality is that many don’t succeed, in large part because they are not academically prepared."

I don't know if it's because they don't know the material or because they aren't able to adjust to working as hard or managing their time as effectively. From my perspective (entering college in 2005) it was generally the case that students had gotten used to skating by because they could get A-'s without trying and then ran into trouble in college, not that students who had worked hard but weren't as smart were getting too overwhelmed to get good grades. Personally, if I had gone into college with less material knowledge and better organizational/management skills, I'd wager my GPA would have been like a point higher or something.

Disclaimer: I was absolutely one of those "knew the material, scrambling to finish homework as the teacher was collecting it" types in HS, so my grades suffered relative to a purely "material mastery" metric.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#56
post #32

One of my favorite memories from high school was from my AP physics class. One of the junior class valedictorians (there were at least 3 girls, all very liberal arts focused, tied for the position at the time) got a C on a test that accounted for a major portion of our grade. After class on the day we got our tests back, she approached the teacher and explained to him that she had never gotten a C before and was gene…

I'm surprised that they were taking AP physics. In Wisconsin, the valedictorian gets a full-ride to anywhere in the UW system. Due to this, many valedictorians I've seen take easy classes and graduate with a 4.1, whereas many of those with lower GPAs--due to difficult classes--end up going to better schools. One year the valedictorian went to UW-Whitewater, and the Salutatorian went to Yale.

"I'm surprised that they were taking AP physics."

A lot of schools really heavily incentivize taking AP classes, because one of the main high school rankings (Newsweek/Washington Post) is literally "(AP tests taken)/(seniors graduated)". Yes, that's "taken", not "passed" or "aced". So you wind up in a situation in some schools where your options are "Physics for Jocks" or "AP Physics with a free +1.0 to your GPA". I was in a situation my senior year where I wound up taking 7 AP classes, not because I specifically wanted 7 AP classes, but because the alternatives were AP or "class that barely targets the standardized test you could already pass on Day 1"

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#57
post #16

"Should students be rewarded for being friendly, prepared, compliant, a good school citizen, well organized and hard-working? Or should good grades represent exclusively a student’s mastery of the material?" Because it would be tremendously difficult to grade the students on both things separately. One of the problems with schools and our society in general is the idea that you can take something complicated and dist…

"One of the problems with schools and our society in general is the idea that you can take something complicated and distill it down to a single, meaningful number. Another problem is the notion that you should even try to do this. We're taking this to ridiculous extremes."

I know that I didn't get into my (Top-25) college based on my High School GPA[1], and I know I got my current entry-level job despite my college GPA. Fortunately, the people evaluating the grades aren't using them as the only criteria.

"How hard is that?"

OK, but do that 150 times. And remember that one wrong word in that sentence is going to draw lawsuit threats or complaints to the principal/school board. You'll eventually be forced to fall back on pre-screened, buzzword-heavy, meaning-light phrases like many school districts currently have.

[1] - 9 people from my high school graduating class went to my college - #2 through #9 in the GPA ranking and me (#38, barely in the top 10%)

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#58
The job of schooling isn't to teach skills and knowledge, it's to teach deference and compliance. I can prove this quite straightforwardly. Imagine how our system would treat a student who aced every test, completed every assignment perfectly, but who habitually truanted and generally refused to toe the line.

If schools were simply a place of teaching and learning, such a student should face no problems, but in most schools he would be highly unlikely to graduate. The imposition of discipline is not merely a secondary function necessary to facilitate teaching, it is an end in itself. Children are taught that a teacher must be obeyed because he is powerful, not because he is worth listening to. There is a clear and persistent message that teachers should be respected and obeyed simply because they have a bigger desk. Even in jurisdictions where it is relatively easy to dismiss incompetent teachers, they are rarely dealt with. I believe that there is simply no demand to do so, as teaching is merely a ruse to allow for schooling to happen.

I argue that the failures of our school system are not simply symptomatic of underfunding, union problems or poor strategy. They are the product of our inability to define the purpose of schooling, our unwillingness to confront the role of schools as cheap daycare, and our hypocrisy as to the real purpose of schooling as a thing apart from education.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#59

"Should students be rewarded for being friendly, prepared, compliant, a good school citizen, well organized and hard-working? Or should good grades represent exclusively a student’s mastery of the material?" Well it depends on what school is for. To be perfectly honest, I'd say that organization and scheduling my time properly and working hard are far more important in college and in the workplace than mastery of sub…

Agree that the question comes down to the purpose of school, and I think that's part of the problem. There's tension around what the actual ask is for students. Is school a force for teaching socialization and competence in the real world, or for learning academics. And should that learning be focused on practical knowledge, or on ways of thinking in general.

I think that's an issue at the core of a lot of the debates around evaluating both students and teachers. You can measure some of it really well, but much of it is on the "soft" side of things. You want to be able to quantify it in order to understand whether or not a student is actually progressing across a wide array of dimensions, but, by it's nature, it is hard to quantify.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#60

The job of schooling isn't to teach skills and knowledge, it's to teach deference and compliance. I can prove this quite straightforwardly. Imagine how our system would treat a student who aced every test, completed every assignment perfectly, but who habitually truanted and generally refused to toe the line. If schools were simply a place of teaching and learning, such a student should face no problems, but in most…

Your proof is not logically sound. The same failure would confront a total brown-noser who quite literally failed every exam. I know a guy who essentially failed out of high school, didn't do college, and then got into one of the country's best law schools - because he is incredibly bright. You need both sides of the equation to really succeed.

School admittedly has multiple purposes, but your view of it is, I think, unnecessarily cynical. Sure, there are bad teachers and systems out there, but there are also amazing teachers, principals, and superintendents doing unbelievable things with students - both academically, and socially.

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