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The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

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Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#141

Post by barry-cotter »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #47

He succesfully performed a complicated surgery for $10K that would cost $200K in the US. And India still can't afford to pay those prices. The problem is obviously not that THIS guy is not working efficiently. It's that the distribution of wealth under our planetary economic system is deeply unfair.

The natural distribution of wealth, on the other hand, is eminently fair. Before agriculture everyone was poor. After the rise of agriculture almost everyone was poor but there were many more of them, and those who were “not poor” had no medicine worth the name, could not travel with anything resembling modern convenience and lived in the dark when the sun went down. Starting sometime between 1300 and 1800, depending on measurement the first sustained rise in living standards in human history began, because of capitalism.

It’s how almost all other sustained rises in living standards have happened too. China’s first growth miracle in the 20th century happened because going from civil war to the Communist Party was an improvement but in India, China, Indonesia, Russia, moving to capitalism lead to a rise in living standards.

Fairness would be nice but let’s try getting everyone out of poverty first.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#142

Post by pas »

robertAngst wrote: post #117
laurencerowe wrote: post #70

The US healthcare system is absurdly inefficient but the nominal cost comparison given in the article is meaningless since wages make up a huge proportion of costs in healthcare (either directly or embedded in supplies and services.) Nominal per capita income in India is ~$2000 while in the US it is ~$60,000. Simplistically one would expect costs to be approximately 30x higher in the US so a 20x difference in cost of…

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s Can we start blaming Physicians and Pharmacists yet? Physicians are 300k+/yr earners because they artificially limit admissions of medical school. Not to mention its dangerous to use Pharmacists in 2019. Everything should be done by computers. Expensive Dangerous rubber stamp. But yes, Hospitals, insurance companies, and pharmacies are to blame. To no surprise, al…

> they artificially limit admissions of medical school

Do they? I thought it was about number of residency spots available that was the real bottleneck. Anyway, sources please!

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#143

Post by thatoneuser »

lemoncucumber wrote: post #110
thatoneuser wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk if I'd agree that it's "unfair" because that implies there's some natural balance we've disrupted, when in reality wealth is largely the result of labor and ingenuity. If a group of people gets together and creates wealth for themselves and their offspring, is it unfair that they are wealthier than the rest of the population? That kind of thinking at some level is fundamentally unfair itself - if you go collect a…

The aspect of capitalism that's problematic to me is not that people can generate wealth through labor, it's that they can generate wealth through wealth. You can make far more money just by being rich and owning capital than you ever can by your own labor. You can own physical property that makes money like farmland, apartment buildings, natural resources, factories, etc. or you can be a shareholder in companies whi…

I agree to some extent that wealth begetting wealth can be problematic, but in order to have the first bit of wealth someone has to create it. If you made the first hammer you'd be able to make more hammers much easier. You've effectively made the world wealthier by your work and invention and as a result it's fair that you get more than just the value of your hammer.

Your claim about making more wealth from wealth than labor kinda skips over the parts about needing so much wealth and having to accumulate it.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#144

Post by thatoneuser »

BucketSort wrote: post #138
thatoneuser wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk if I'd agree that it's "unfair" because that implies there's some natural balance we've disrupted, when in reality wealth is largely the result of labor and ingenuity. If a group of people gets together and creates wealth for themselves and their offspring, is it unfair that they are wealthier than the rest of the population? That kind of thinking at some level is fundamentally unfair itself - if you go collect a…

Does it appeal to your sense of justice that within the same society some live opulently, yet others live in constant fear of not having the basic necessities of life? Not only would I say this is unjust, but that it is also unsound and a danger to society itself. The worst qualities of humans emerge when they are fighting for survival. I'm fine with a system that has wealth inequality, I don't see any way around tha…

I'll be honest - I don't know many people who are of sound mind and body and who consistently make level headed choices living in constant fear of having basic necessities. I know a LOT of people in this situation because they don't improve their skills, don't work many hours, had kids young, had numerous kids, want to live in a high demand area despite low income or because they prioritize luxury items over quality necessities. Factoring things like that in paints a very different picture than what you're saying.

Wow I thought we were having a civil discussion until the second half of your post. You have some very presumptuous nerve. Rather than responding to all the ad hominem I'll just explain:

My parents fed and clothed me for 18 years. The public services are there for a reason and many of them (ie schools) need to be there. I inherited knowledge from thousands of years of thinking. I believe all humans deserve those types of gifts, and as such I'm willing to pay my fair share back.

What I absolutely refuse is to allow people to come in and take more and more until they are satisfied. To tell me that they know better than me (as you are attempting to do) of my privilege and what I owe for it. You want to sacrifice your life's work to others? Go for it. Put your money where your mouth is. But you just keep your opinions about what I owe and what I deserve to yourself because you don't know me and I guarantee you're going to look like an idiot if you continue to try to talk down to me.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#145

Post by scarejunba »

pas wrote: post #142
robertAngst wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s Can we start blaming Physicians and Pharmacists yet? Physicians are 300k+/yr earners because they artificially limit admissions of medical school. Not to mention its dangerous to use Pharmacists in 2019. Everything should be done by computers. Expensive Dangerous rubber stamp. But yes, Hospitals, insurance companies, and pharmacies are to blame. To no surprise, al…

> they artificially limit admissions of medical school Do they? I thought it was about number of residency spots available that was the real bottleneck. Anyway, sources please!

They did when I was younger. Fortunately, I work in a field without massive administrative fiat and my skill is sufficient.

See https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-docto...

There's other news, but based on the amount of time it takes to make a doctor and the hysteresis in the market, this should do.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#146

Post by barry-cotter »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #129
thatoneuser wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk if I'd agree that it's "unfair" because that implies there's some natural balance we've disrupted, when in reality wealth is largely the result of labor and ingenuity. If a group of people gets together and creates wealth for themselves and their offspring, is it unfair that they are wealthier than the rest of the population? That kind of thinking at some level is fundamentally unfair itself - if you go collect a…

> wealth is largely the result of labor and ingenuity Does that assertion come from a study, or is it just a guess? My guess would be that wealth comes primarily from war and genocide, but I admit I haven't looked at the economic theories.

War and genocide have been part of human history since before the split from chimpanzees. Wealth in anything like what we’d recognise it dates to after the rise of agriculture.

We can be quite confident that European wealth during the age of colonialism didn’t have much to do with colonialism as such because that wealth preceded the colonies and neighbours that differed in having colonies were much the same economically. Britain was rich before it took over India. Germany had no colonies of any economic importance and Austria-Hungary none. They do not suffer by comparison with France with its extensive colonial empire.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#147

Post by firstfewshells »

rushabh wrote: post #88
steve19 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying you should not be proud of Indian progress, but I suspect the experiences of a businessman in a big city in India are vastly different to a low caste woman with TB in rural India. A friend of mine is a nurse who did social work in rural India. What she told me about the local hospitals was horrifying, not just the condition of the hospital and how patients with infectious diseases were sleeping on the…

Experiences in India will vary dramatically based on which state you live in. If you are rural Kerla, a state with 50M people in South India, you are likely to get some of the best quality healthcare are very affordable rates. It’s hard to generalise anything about India which is incredibly huge and diverse.

At the risk of nitpicking, Kerala population is actually close to 34M.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#148

Post by fwip »

thatoneuser wrote: post #140
drewblaisdell wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in reality wealth is largely the result of labor and ingenuity The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people that this is true.

OK so if humans didn't toil to create tools and housing and technology then how did it arise?

The fundamental assertion of capitalism is that capital should beget capital.

Under capitalism, wealth is created by labor and taken by those already wealthy.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#149

Post by BucketSort »

thatoneuser wrote: post #144
BucketSort wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it appeal to your sense of justice that within the same society some live opulently, yet others live in constant fear of not having the basic necessities of life? Not only would I say this is unjust, but that it is also unsound and a danger to society itself. The worst qualities of humans emerge when they are fighting for survival. I'm fine with a system that has wealth inequality, I don't see any way around tha…

I'll be honest - I don't know many people who are of sound mind and body and who consistently make level headed choices living in constant fear of having basic necessities. I know a LOT of people in this situation because they don't improve their skills, don't work many hours, had kids young, had numerous kids, want to live in a high demand area despite low income or because they prioritize luxury items over quality…

> I know a LOT of people in this situation because they don't improve their skills, don't work many hours, had kids young, had numerous kids, want to live in a high demand area despite low income or because they prioritize luxury items over quality necessities.

Yes, of course. Are you suggesting all people are wise and have this foresight? Are you suggesting that people aren't raised in stressful and violent environments, greatly worsened by economic pressure, whom turn to vice instead of education and productivity? I don't think it paints a different picture, I think it reaffirms my position: that some people aren't fit to thrive in society, but that doesn't mean (by my values) they do not have the RIGHT to the necessities of life.

> To tell me that they know better than me (as you are attempting to do) of my privilege and what I owe for it.

This is not a matter of logic, but of principles. I do not believe I know better than you, I believe I understand the plight of common people more than you, and that my view of the world has been formed by that. You aren't wrong, I'm not wrong. I know this, but at the same time rhetoric which casts the proponents of opposite principles as being in the wrong is the main tool one has in convincing others that his principles are the "right" ones.

> I guarantee you're going to look like an idiot if you continue to try to talk down to me.

I'm sorry I rustled your jimmies so much. It's not personal, I was just addressing the position you seemed to be defending. I only know you as a paragraph of text, take it easy.

Re: The World’s Cheapest Hospital Has to Get Even Cheaper

#150

Post by udba »

sgjohnson wrote: post #127
udba wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone wants an idea for an app or website - a way to lookup local ERs by price would be great. > lookup local ERs by price Incredible. It's absurd that an idea like this is a reasonable suggestion.

Why? It’s the free market approach. After all, healthcare is just a service.

Like someone in this thread said: "Medical care really is one of those things that no person should have to beg or borrow for, in a civil society."

There's nothing I can do for you if you think that access to health care should be contingent on your bank account.

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