Vaguely clicker game related comment hijack: I wish Android required a revokable permission to hide the status bar and navigation keys. Clever ad supported idle games on Android exploit this to hide the clock, making you unaware of how much time passed - for the same reason Casinos avoid having visible clocks like the plague, and I consider this rather morally problematic, and thus in need of a dedicated user control…
Ban fullscreen games from Google Play? That sounds like an overreaction.
The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
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Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#32I missed out on Universal Paperclips, but I immediately love the idea. The notion of the Paperclip AI that destroys humanity to build paperclips is a sublime illustration of how badly computer scientists need to take a few philosophy courses to broaden their thinking, as is its facile allure. (Most reasonable fears of AI are fears around what we will use it to do to others, not what it will do to us, as all conflict…
https://intelligence.org/2013/05/05/five-theses-two-lemmas-a...
> For example, if you want to build a galaxy full of happy sentient beings, you will need matter and energy, and the same is also true if you want to make paperclips. This thesis is why we’re worried about very powerful entities even if they have no explicit dislike of us: “The AI does not love you, nor does it hate you, but you are made of atoms it can use for something else.” Note though that by the Orthogonality Thesis you can always have an agent which explicitly, terminally prefers not to do any particular thing — an AI which does love you will not want to break you apart for spare atoms. See: Omohundro (2008); Bostrom (2012).
I guess two popular ways of disputing this thesis are to say that no AI that we can build can actually become this powerful, or to say that we'll easily program AIs not to harm us. I think the first objection is more cogent because there are various ways that you could argue that we're far from understanding how to build AIs of this kind.
The second objection is a subtle problem; the Omohundro-Bostrom-Yudkowsky-Bostrom argument is very focused on the idea that there are so many hidden assumptions about what it means not to harm us, and what kinds of things are off-limits, that someone who tries to capture all of them algorithmically at one stroke is more likely to fail than to succeed. And quite a few of the toy game-playing AI systems have found ways to cheat by human standards and miss the essence of the human understanding of the task they were set.
I think your analogy to the banknote-maximizer makes some of that subtlety clear: if we don't know what things are off-limits, we could see how a banknote-maximizer could cause very severe externalities without malice.
(The earlier Omohundro argument points out that, whatever you want to accomplish, power and safety will help you accomplish it, so you always have a good reason to try to acquire them. Maybe an AI could be explicitly programmed not to want to acquire power and safety, but there, again, we'd want a very good way to describe exactly what those things do or don't consist of.)
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#33I remember starting this game at mid-day and having no idea that I would end up building paperclips well into the night. What impressed me the most was how the "secret" gradually unfolded, so that you were already hooked and felt a compulsion to continue game play, even after it became clear that this wasn't the innocuous game you thought it was at first. It led me to build a clicker game that also has more to it tha…
I prefer games not be so heavy handed but, If it must, I’d rather the message be part of the game (eg, papers please) than an essay on top of it. It just immediately turned me off, hard.
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#34I missed out on Universal Paperclips, but I immediately love the idea. The notion of the Paperclip AI that destroys humanity to build paperclips is a sublime illustration of how badly computer scientists need to take a few philosophy courses to broaden their thinking, as is its facile allure. (Most reasonable fears of AI are fears around what we will use it to do to others, not what it will do to us, as all conflict…
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Clicker Heroes is a shameless clicker-clone, but one of the better ones. I think universal paperclips is definitely one of the best idle games, but I'd give Clicker Heroes (the original) a strong contender. I know Clicker Heroes 2 is out, but I haven't tried it yet myself. Clicker Heroes goes for the shameless simplicity of growth, but its got the biggest numbers and the most "acceleration" out of any clicker game I'…
I've lurked the incremental game community for nearly a decade now. Some good ones to google if anyone is looking for more: A Dark Room, Shark Game, Idling through Loops, Idle Skilling, Trimps, Idling to rule the gods, Derivative Clicker, Factory Idle. A friend and I wrote "Dungeons of Derp" an (semi-unfinished) idle/incremental dungeoncrawler - "diablo 2 but with autonomous hero": https://idle-dungeon.firebaseapp.co…
They all remind me of this:
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've lurked the incremental game community for nearly a decade now. Some good ones to google if anyone is looking for more: A Dark Room, Shark Game, Idling through Loops, Idle Skilling, Trimps, Idling to rule the gods, Derivative Clicker, Factory Idle. A friend and I wrote "Dungeons of Derp" an (semi-unfinished) idle/incremental dungeoncrawler - "diablo 2 but with autonomous hero": https://idle-dungeon.firebaseapp.co…
I tried A Dark Room. Then i realized it was everything addicting about RPGs distilled down to some bars that you click to fill. It reminded me of my days being addicted to Diablo 2. They are straight up skinner boxes. Clicker games are the video game equivalent of crack. They're basically dopamine stimulation buttons. Keep clicking and you'll eventually be rewarded by that little burst of feel good juice when you rea…
However, a GOOD clicker game (such as one with Universal Paperclips) recognizes that the genre is not about dopamine rushes. Instead, a good clicker game is really a management simulator.
Factorio is probably the best example: build your factory correctly, and you never have to lift a finger to do any work at all. Of course, Factorio is a management game, but at its core, its a clicker game (click to mine Iron / Copper / Stone).
Factorio becomes recognized as a good Management game because although the "clicker" mechanic exists to mine stuff, it isn't actually how the player is supposed to play. The "clicks" are there to give a sense of scale (it takes ~2 seconds for a beginning player to mine 1-iron).
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In a similar way, Universal Paperclips is a management game, and with an ending to boot. So you're "free" once you see the ending (unlike a lot of other games). Which is why I consider it to be one of the better clicker games.
Clicker Heroes also manages to make the jump into a solid management simulator. As you purchase heroes, the game is more about figuring out the optimal distribution of hero levels. Clicker Heroes does have an infinite grind however, so it loses points in my eyes.
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All in all, a clicker-game is simply a management game, like Sim City. There's just a "click" mechanic to connect the player with the absolute baseline activity of the game. In Universal Paperclips, you build a few paperclips one-at-a-time at the beginning of the game.
Honestly, the dumb skinner-box grind is far more present in mainstream games (MMORPGs, Loot Crates). Some clicker-games have this awful behavior, but the good ones tend to avoid it.
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tried A Dark Room. Then i realized it was everything addicting about RPGs distilled down to some bars that you click to fill. It reminded me of my days being addicted to Diablo 2. They are straight up skinner boxes. Clicker games are the video game equivalent of crack. They're basically dopamine stimulation buttons. Keep clicking and you'll eventually be rewarded by that little burst of feel good juice when you rea…
That's certainly one way to think about clicker games, and it probably applies to most clicker games I know of. However, a GOOD clicker game (such as one with Universal Paperclips) recognizes that the genre is not about dopamine rushes. Instead, a good clicker game is really a management simulator. Factorio is probably the best example: build your factory correctly, and you never have to lift a finger to do any work…
I can't do RPGs any more since skyrim. I realized one day i'd played for several hours but had done nothing but craft things and organize my storage and inventory.
I get into dwarf fortress and CDDA every once in a while until i start to realize how much time i waste on them. I'll play fortresses until it takes ten minutes to do shit from fps death or spend several evenings in Cataclysm building a base and collecting food and resources and crap. I can't do it any more. It sucks me in too much.
I try to limit my gaming to platformers and arcade type games these days. I've spent way too long playing games about managing numbers, but i fail to do this effectively in life and i realize i end up spending way too much time sucked into imaginary worlds and not enough time focused on things i should.
I've wasted a lot of time on things like that. Years of my life cumulatively. Games like the diablo series and other action rpgs, the civilization games, a whole bunch of real time and turn based strategies, just about every jrpg on every console, a good majority of earlier computer rpgs and some recent ones, 4x strategy games, space sims and lots more. Thousands of hours thinking about and managing imaginary numbers. For me at least, the last thing i need is a bunch of numbers and bars with a button to fill them.
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#38Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#39That game really made a huge splash awhile ago, I just so happened to have played through it again on the iPhone. It's just a great game and shows how the idle/incremental genre has a lot of room to grow. If you like that game I recommend buying A Dark Room, which has a good story behind it and some interesting gameplay elements. Like Paperclips the gameplay changes as you progress.
Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips
#40I remember starting this game at mid-day and having no idea that I would end up building paperclips well into the night. What impressed me the most was how the "secret" gradually unfolded, so that you were already hooked and felt a compulsion to continue game play, even after it became clear that this wasn't the innocuous game you thought it was at first. It led me to build a clicker game that also has more to it tha…
I played for 30 seconds before my screen got plastered by a long and heavy handed essay. I prefer games not be so heavy handed but, If it must, I’d rather the message be part of the game (eg, papers please) than an essay on top of it. It just immediately turned me off, hard.