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Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

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Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#11

Post by ojbyrne »

thetrumanshow wrote: post #2

"...the value Google is getting out of my work is worth many multiples of my total compensation. And that’s a position that every engineer should strive for, since that’s how you can be confident that you will remain gainfully employed." As an entrepreneur, something about this statement bothers me... something about all the value I create getting skimmed off the top and taken away by someone else. Yeah, that's proba…

Presumably you've read Marx then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value

But really that's the point of any kind of organization, even capitalism - specialization allows a group of people to create more value than 1 person alone.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#12

Post by adambyrtek »

thetrumanshow wrote: post #2

"...the value Google is getting out of my work is worth many multiples of my total compensation. And that’s a position that every engineer should strive for, since that’s how you can be confident that you will remain gainfully employed." As an entrepreneur, something about this statement bothers me... something about all the value I create getting skimmed off the top and taken away by someone else. Yeah, that's proba…

The fallacy comes from the assumption that the added value depends solely on you, and disregarding the context. The author mentions himself that his tweaks to the Linux kernel and ext4 filesystem could have saved Google millions, but only due to the enormous number of machines they have. It doesn't mean that an average startup would get the same benefits from his work in this area.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#13

Post by thetrumanshow »

ojbyrne wrote: post #11
thetrumanshow wrote: post #2

"...the value Google is getting out of my work is worth many multiples of my total compensation. And that’s a position that every engineer should strive for, since that’s how you can be confident that you will remain gainfully employed." As an entrepreneur, something about this statement bothers me... something about all the value I create getting skimmed off the top and taken away by someone else. Yeah, that's proba…

Presumably you've read Marx then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value But really that's the point of any kind of organization, even capitalism - specialization allows a group of people to create more value than 1 person alone.

I certainly didn't mean that I think these gaps shouldn't exist at all, but rather that I am spurred to move up the value chain and have a chance at taking a greater %... as opposed to just getting to play with neat technology.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#14

Post by gyardley »

brown9-2 wrote: post #10
gyardley wrote: post #4

Okay, so Google has a problem retaining the subset of great engineers who're also entrepreneurial. That's still a problem.

Where does the author say that? He is claiming that the startup life is for people interested in entrepreneurship, not technology. If their attrition rate truly hasn't moved at all, then I don't see how one can say there is a problem retaining any subset of people.

The author didn't say that, I said that.

We'd need more data, but obviously the attrition rate could remain constant for the whole while changing for some of its parts. Perhaps Google has gotten better at retaining non-entrepreneurial engineering talent, while getting worse at retaining entrepreneurial engineering talent.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#15

Post by brown9-2 »

gyardley wrote: post #14
brown9-2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the author say that? He is claiming that the startup life is for people interested in entrepreneurship, not technology. If their attrition rate truly hasn't moved at all, then I don't see how one can say there is a problem retaining any subset of people.

The author didn't say that, I said that. We'd need more data, but obviously the attrition rate could remain constant for the whole while changing for some of its parts. Perhaps Google has gotten better at retaining non-entrepreneurial engineering talent, while getting worse at retaining entrepreneurial engineering talent.

Perhaps Google has gotten better at retaining non-entrepreneurial engineering talent, while getting worse at retaining entrepreneurial engineering talent.

But you aren't really basing any of this on any facts or even statements by involved parties, are you? This is just theorizing that maybe their rate is worse in some spots. Maybe their rate is even better among this last category. What is the point of idle speculation like this?

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#16

Post by thetrumanshow »

sparky wrote: post #3
thetrumanshow wrote: post #2

"...the value Google is getting out of my work is worth many multiples of my total compensation. And that’s a position that every engineer should strive for, since that’s how you can be confident that you will remain gainfully employed." As an entrepreneur, something about this statement bothers me... something about all the value I create getting skimmed off the top and taken away by someone else. Yeah, that's proba…

On the flip side, much of the value you are able to create may come as the result of the infrastructure and colleagues provided to you by that same "someone else". Seems particularly true at a place like Google. When you work for yourself, you get to keep 100% (minus taxes) of (probably) a smaller number; whether that is best for you depends on your personality.

Even so, if you're a top performer, you end up subsidizing the paychecks of a lot of people.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#17

Post by thetrumanshow »

gyardley wrote: post #14
brown9-2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the author say that? He is claiming that the startup life is for people interested in entrepreneurship, not technology. If their attrition rate truly hasn't moved at all, then I don't see how one can say there is a problem retaining any subset of people.

The author didn't say that, I said that. We'd need more data, but obviously the attrition rate could remain constant for the whole while changing for some of its parts. Perhaps Google has gotten better at retaining non-entrepreneurial engineering talent, while getting worse at retaining entrepreneurial engineering talent.

It is very possible, I agree.

I have often wondered why some companies (even mature ones) actively recruit entrepreneurially-minded folks. It just seems to me that they would create trouble for you once they realize you aren't acting like a market internally, and are only willing to pay labor-market rates (except in discreet circumstances).

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#18

Post by DannoHung »

nostromo wrote: post #8
thetrumanshow wrote: post #2

"...the value Google is getting out of my work is worth many multiples of my total compensation. And that’s a position that every engineer should strive for, since that’s how you can be confident that you will remain gainfully employed." As an entrepreneur, something about this statement bothers me... something about all the value I create getting skimmed off the top and taken away by someone else. Yeah, that's proba…

I agree with your comment, but would like to point out that this is almost always the case. As an example, I used to work at a SaaS company, and we generated more value for our customers than we charged in fees. Well, duh, otherwise they wouldn't be our customers for long. Same goes for every lasting business model: your cut <= your value generated.

Though I suppose it depends on the definition of value, something seems somewhat wrong about this maxim, otherwise there wouldn't be abhorrent anger at certain business models.

For example, Payday lenders.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#19

Post by wooster » 

  They are about business model discovery.  
  So if you are fundamentally a technologist 
  at heart, whose heart sings when you’re 
  making a better file system, or fixing a 
  kernel bug, you’re not going to be happy 
  at a startup.
There are plenty of storage startups in Silicon Valley that would be happy to pay someone to do filesystem work.

Web 2.0 startups are not the only game in town. There are plenty of other companies at which to do serious engineering work.

Re: Google has a problem retaining great engineers? Bullcrap.

#20

Post by btilly »

sdizdar wrote: post #7

The following sentence is very not true and quite misleading: > Similarly, you don’t work on great technology at a startup. .. They are about business model discovery... If that is true, then why do technology startups exist at all? Isn't discovering business model very much connected to discovering new technologies (new, more efficient ways to solve problems)? In other words, if a technology startup is not planning…

I emphatically disagree. At least for most "technology startups".

Technology startups are just startups that require technology to operate. I've worked at some successful ones. And they really were about finding the right business model. We needed good technology people and there were fun technical problems. But really they were about finding business models that fully used the technology, and not about the technology itself.

That said, there are some real technology startups. They look rather different. For instance I know employee #7 at SpaceX. There is no question that that company is really about the technology.

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