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“The China Study” and Longevity

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Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#11

Post by blacksmith_tb »

colinhmit wrote: post #4

>"The above analysis is trivially simple. Just data preprocessing simple correlations and filtering, using the most high-level overview the data allows for regarding food intake and health. The possible effect of different foods on longevity. No massaging of the data, no exposure to birthday paradox spuriousness, no statistical tricks, questionable adjustments for, etc" There is also no controlling for anything! It s…

Certainly true, but I don't think anyone will draw the opposite conclusion that poverty contributes to longevity...

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#12

Post by getpost »

justin66 wrote: post #8
getpost wrote: post #5

Denise Minger thoroughly critiques T. Colin Campbell's (seemingly incompetent) interpretation of the data in this study. https://deniseminger.com/the-china-study/ EDIT: TCC's reply: http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-col...

The headline given by "vegsource" to the article on T. Colin Campbell's reply ("China Study Author Colin Campbell Slaps Down Critic") is unfortunate, since his reply is surprisingly detailed and collegial.

I think this would be excellent material for a medical statistics course. Fortunately, the raw data is available.

Do the data support the TCC's conclusions?

Are Denise Minger's critiques valid?

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#13

Post by markstos »

papermill wrote: post #10
lspears wrote: post #2

I think this analysis is incomplete. It's important to separate out longevity from cause of death. "The China Study"'s central premiss is that a vegan diet reduces the likelihood of dying of the "Western" diseases such as heart disease and cancer. A simple correlation between a vegan diet and longevity doesn't address this and also wouldn't take into account the high correlation between not being able to afford anima…

"Western" disease is caused by high intake of processed foods, soda, etc. It isn't the vegan diet that helps. It's removing processed food, soda, etc. You can be an omnivore or a carnivore and remove processed junk food and reduce "Western" disease. And you can be a vegan and eat a ton of processed vegan junk food and succumb to "Western" disease. Processed foods and overeating is the true problem in the western diet…

And do you references to published study results to back up your assertion?

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#14

Post by slothtrop »

amarka wrote: post #6
getpost wrote: post #5

Denise Minger thoroughly critiques T. Colin Campbell's (seemingly incompetent) interpretation of the data in this study. https://deniseminger.com/the-china-study/ EDIT: TCC's reply: http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-col...

Why should I trust Denise Minger over Colin Campbell? I read Capbell's China Study and I'm definitely interested in counter points to his findings, but it seems like Minger is a food blogger (and recent book author) while the other is a biochemist with a long history in their field.

You don't have to trust anything, she lays out relevant information from the original study with analysis. It's not conjecture when the info is there plainly to see. Reading studies isn't that hard.

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#15

Post by markstos »

Could someone quote from the book the claim on longevity or "All Cause Mortality" that this post is refuting?

The book is primarily about correlating the Western diet and animal protein with some western diseases.

There is no data here about the central claims of the book.

I read the book and don't remember the specific claims about longevity. I wouldn't be surprised if he found a correlation with longevity, though.

The US NIH found that Seventh-Day Adventists tend to live 4-10 years longer than the general population on a primarily vegetarian diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church#H...

The large scale "Nurses Study" and the "Health Professionals Follow-up Study" also correlated plant-based diets with decreased risk of death.

https://www.mygenefood.com/plant-based-diet-longevity/

Also important, plant-rich diets are one of the top solutions for climate change ( https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank ). That's another great reason to scale back animal protein consumption.

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#16

Post by feb »

getpost wrote: post #12
justin66 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline given by "vegsource" to the article on T. Colin Campbell's reply ("China Study Author Colin Campbell Slaps Down Critic") is unfortunate, since his reply is surprisingly detailed and collegial.

I think this would be excellent material for a medical statistics course. Fortunately, the raw data is available. Do the data support the TCC's conclusions? Are Denise Minger's critiques valid?

Harriet Hall from Science Based Medecine finds Denise Mingers critiques good and well researched: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#17

Post by bertomartin »

papermill wrote: post #10
lspears wrote: post #2

I think this analysis is incomplete. It's important to separate out longevity from cause of death. "The China Study"'s central premiss is that a vegan diet reduces the likelihood of dying of the "Western" diseases such as heart disease and cancer. A simple correlation between a vegan diet and longevity doesn't address this and also wouldn't take into account the high correlation between not being able to afford anima…

"Western" disease is caused by high intake of processed foods, soda, etc. It isn't the vegan diet that helps. It's removing processed food, soda, etc. You can be an omnivore or a carnivore and remove processed junk food and reduce "Western" disease. And you can be a vegan and eat a ton of processed vegan junk food and succumb to "Western" disease. Processed foods and overeating is the true problem in the western diet…

This is so true...I believe this wholeheartedly, had to find my long-last hn login to upvote this. I've read a lot of stories where people start a diet such as one meal a day, or all potatoes...heck I even heard of a guy who was "curing" patients with only rice and sugar back in the day. The common thread among these stories is that they've stopped eating a lot of what they used to (presumably mostly junk food), and so their body can recover. It's not what you put in so much as what you've stopped putting in.

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#18

Post by superpermutat0r »

feb wrote: post #16
getpost wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this would be excellent material for a medical statistics course. Fortunately, the raw data is available. Do the data support the TCC's conclusions? Are Denise Minger's critiques valid?

Harriet Hall from Science Based Medecine finds Denise Mingers critiques good and well researched: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

But they are not. She didn't control any variables. She also didn't mention that TCC published several studies that go against the thesis of China Study, after he wrote the book.

There's definitely valid criticism of the epidemiological study model but Monger's sloppy data munging is not.

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#19

Post by tomp »

stakodiak wrote: post #3

The author is missing an important point: dietary sources of cholesterol are from animal byproducts only. > Cholesterol comes from two sources. Your liver makes all the cholesterol you need. The remainder of the cholesterol in your body comes from foods derived from animals. For example, meat, poultry and full-fat dairy products all contain cholesterol, called dietary cholesterol. > Those same foods are high in satur…

> trans fats.

I’m no expert but this is the first time I hear about this. I thought trans fats are mainly found in industrially processed (mostly vegetable) fats!

Ah, according to Wikipedia:

> Animal-based fats were once the only trans fats consumed, but by far the largest amount of trans fat consumed today is created by the processed food industry as a side effect of partially hydrogenating unsaturated plant fats (generally vegetable oils). These partially hydrogenated fats have displaced natural solid fats and liquid oils in many areas, the most notable ones being in the fast food, snack food, fried food, and baked goods industries.

So eating no fast food, no margarine and also no animals might even further reduce consumption of trans fats.

Re: “The China Study” and Longevity

#20

Post by pergadad »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #11
colinhmit wrote: post #4

>"The above analysis is trivially simple. Just data preprocessing simple correlations and filtering, using the most high-level overview the data allows for regarding food intake and health. The possible effect of different foods on longevity. No massaging of the data, no exposure to birthday paradox spuriousness, no statistical tricks, questionable adjustments for, etc" There is also no controlling for anything! It s…

Certainly true, but I don't think anyone will draw the opposite conclusion that poverty contributes to longevity...

There were a few studies showing that rats fed less than their normal assumed calorie intake urged to live longer. I can't speak for the effect pathway, but similar things could also be true in humans.
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