Live data from Hacker News

Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

nytimes.com

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the test accurately reflects the course material, is there a difference?

The problem is (at least) three-fold. One: The tail wags the dog. Since No Child Left Behind, schools have had one major metric: test scores. They have now geared everything else towards making test scores improve, from curriculum to teaching how to take a test. So the test drives all. Two: Tests are not necessarily a great way to assess mastery of material. The fact that teaching test-taking strategies can dramatica…

The fact that teaching test-taking strategies can dramatically improve scores (independent of underlying domain knowledge) is one example of testing's weaknesses.

If you give this training to everyone (note: it doesn't take that much time), everyone receives the dramatic improvement due to test-strategy education, and test scores become comparable again.

Tests [...], of necessity, have to be far more limited in scope than what we (should) want to educate people on.

Please explain. Is the concern simply that tests are only a statistically representative sampling of things the student should know, rather than the actual knowledge?

That's true. Similarly, a map of America isn't actually America. Doesn't mean it isn't useful.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#22
post #11
post #9

And the followup will likely be: Many teachers teaching to the test, not teaching so students master course material.

If the test accurately reflects the course material, is there a difference?

The problem is the same as this Dilbert cartoon: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-11-13/

When metrics/scores/grades matter, they become much less useful. Grades are harder to game than the Dilbert cartoon -- learning the material is still one of the best ways to increase your score. But once grades matter to teachers and schools as well, the opportunities for gaming increase substantially.

If the cure's worse than the disease, we could bring back the curve. I don't think it's gone that far yet, though...

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#23
All of this crap is just that... crap. "Teaching for the test/compliance" is the big whine today. 15 years ago, the trend was to give everyone an A so their feelings wouldn't be hurt.

Teachers are all bent because kids aren't doing well on standardized tests, so they get pressure to raise the grades. So they address the situation by drilling the kids to pass the test, and it's obvious that the dumb kids are still dumb and the smart kids are still smart.

You have all of these people making big money analyzing these states to death and coming up with lots of brilliant ideas. At the end of the day, it means nothing because some percentage of kids do well, some percentage are drinking in the boy's room and some people in the middle are penalized/rewarded by some variance introduced by the system.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#24
All through elementary school and middle school, and in many of my high school classes, I bemoaned that I had to do tedious homework that didn't teach me anything (not in every class--mostly math, science that was primarily math, and grammar). I frequently said that homework should be optional, and if I do well on tests/quizzes/projects/papers/whatever, homework shouldn't bring down my grade.

But on the other hand, I think part of the reason that I have such a thorough understanding of calculus is that my Calc AB teacher required us to do large quantities of homework. And I was totally fine with having to turn in weekly problem sets in my Multivariable Calc and ODE courses senior year because I needed the homework to solidify my understanding.

I probably would have done the Multivariable and ODE homework on my own because I actually struggled with those classes, but I probably would have done only a small fraction of my AB homework if it weren't required. I still would have gotten A's on most of my AB tests, but I might not have had quite as solid of a foundation. I think I'm better off because I had to do that homework. So that has made me question how I feel about mandatory homework.

Plus, that there's the issue of students who aren't disciplined enough/don't care enough to do optional homework even if they know that that will lead them to do poorly on tests.

It's possible that a system where homework is optional for people who are doing well could solve the latter problem, but it wouldn't have made me do my AB homework. Plus it might breed even more resentment against the nerds who get to skip the homework just because they know the material.

tl;dr: I've experienced many classes where mandatory homework bored me out of my mind and wasted my time, but at other times it has helped me a lot. Also, some people will do as little as they're required, so if homework is optional, they won't do it even if they just failed a test the day before.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#25
post #3

If you are absent for a surprise quiz because you cut a great deal, the 0 will make your other 100 tests average to about 80, even if you know the course material greatly. Does a job prefer better if you master the course material but in general don't follow the smaller rules? For instance, in an interview, wouldn't you look like a fool if you explained away sub-par grades as bureaucratic issues? Part of life, sadly,…

It's a complicated feedback loop, obviously. Society is petty and bureaucratic, hence schools have to be petty and bureaucratic in order to teach how to navigate society? Partially, but partially society is petty and bureaucratic because schools are petty and bureaucratic and people are trained to consider such systems normal and good. (In fact, schools seem a lot pettier and more bureaucratic than the rest of the wo…

If school's sole purpose is to create academic machines out of the students, I would not have a comment. But life is more than that; we DO have to deal with other people. Being 'smarter' should also mean becoming better socially aware as well, I'd hope. In the end, there will be different levels of intelligence between people. Communicating and executing the best solution requires some social mean to convince or plant the seeds of evaluation to many other people for their understanding, less we fall back to the an inferior solution (playing on emotions, being 'pc' as oppose to discussing reality..), or worse, violence.

“The intelligence of the creature known as a crowd, is the square root of the number of people in it.” --Terry Pratchett

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#26
Watch out, I am going to generalize here...

In my experience, in the US, EMPLOYEES in marketing, sales, management, finance, and operations do much better if they have high "life/social" skills even when their level of intelligence or knowledge are lower than others. However, this pattern doesn't fit IT/software and engineering (hard sciences) where creativity and knowledge are required. Some of the best engineers have the worst social skills. You won't find that in other fields.

Then there are the entrepreneurs who tend to break rules and take shortcuts. But they also tend to prefer to hire rule followers. I used to be surprised by all the entrepreneurs without degrees who require degrees for employment. But today I think good entrepreneurs instinctively know they need rule followers to carry out their vision and provide balance.

The question we need to ask about education: What are we trying to produce?

a. Good employees b. Innovative scientists c. Entrepreneurs d. All of the above

d. All of the above. The problem is... Our unionized government run education system isn't flexible enough to allow these different types of people to consciously choose their own path. Instead, in the past, it tried to turn everyone into a rule follower. Now the approach in the article is trying to turn everyone into a scientist and/or entrepreneur. The answer is to educate and evaluate different people different ways. Social skills are critical for some professions, and others not so much. Rule following is also essential in some professions, but deadly in others.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#27

I teach mathematics at a community college. Every year the administration sends to my department statistics on how many people pass our classes. We're told to come up with strategies to increase the passing rate. I haven't had a pay raise in over two years. My strategy for increasing the passing rate is to give points for things a well trained monkey could do. I give points for coming to my office. I give points for…

I attend a podunk university in southern Utah, where college life resembles an episode of 'Community', and the phenomenon you describe is apparent.

60% of the students are seeking acceptance into the nursing program. The school claims it is one of "the top nursing schools in the country". This claim is based on their graduation rates (for those accepted, around 80%). The school inflates their graduation rates by leaning on biology teachers to increase the rate at which people pass their classes, and by making the most difficult classes (e.g. Microbiology) optional.

The problem is that community and liberal arts colleges are small enough that the only significant measure of success is the rate at which students graduate. In my school, at least, nursing tends to (by and large) attract the sort of stupid people who are only interested in the certificate. In this the program is surpassed only by Elementary Education. Thus, economic pressures overpower academic concerns.

Side note: I worry about our nurses. I spent the first three days of June in in the Intermountain Hospital, and I caught the CNAs inadvertently giving me someone else's prescription. Twice.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#28
One of my favorite memories from high school was from my AP physics class. One of the junior class valedictorians (there were at least 3 girls, all very liberal arts focused, tied for the position at the time) got a C on a test that accounted for a major portion of our grade. After class on the day we got our tests back, she approached the teacher and explained to him that she had never gotten a C before and was generally very distressed about the possible effects on her GPA. He was very understanding, and changed her test grade to an A.

Later that year, another of the junior valedictorians was caught cheating on a test. After some deliberation among the councilors and administrators it was decided that she would receive only an informal reprimand, because to fail her with a note on her transcript about cheating (as dictated by school policy) could hurt her chances of getting into a good school (to say nothing of how it would effect her chances of receiving a National Merit Scholarship that the school loved to boast of its students receiving).

On several occasions it was explained to me that it would be "unfair" to heavily weight test scores, because many of the "best" students, who turned in all of their assignments on time, had difficulty understanding the material and might not be able to do well.

I hate to sound bitter, but even the public university I attend now (I wasn't one of the "best" students. I got A's on tests but didn't do much homework - didn't see the point, since I knew the material) is refreshingly performance based compared to that high school. Other than a few exceptional teachers, I find it best for my blood pressure to try to forget high school entirely.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#29
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a complicated feedback loop, obviously. Society is petty and bureaucratic, hence schools have to be petty and bureaucratic in order to teach how to navigate society? Partially, but partially society is petty and bureaucratic because schools are petty and bureaucratic and people are trained to consider such systems normal and good. (In fact, schools seem a lot pettier and more bureaucratic than the rest of the wo…

If school's sole purpose is to create academic machines out of the students, I would not have a comment. But life is more than that; we DO have to deal with other people. Being 'smarter' should also mean becoming better socially aware as well, I'd hope. In the end, there will be different levels of intelligence between people. Communicating and executing the best solution requires some social mean to convince or plan…

I think this is an argument for grading students on knowledge rather than compliance. Forcing students to serve time in the school system as though they were felons doesn't teach social awareness. It doesn't teach you how to navigate the bureaucracies in society. It teaches you to submit to authority.

When I talk about 'navigating the bureaucracy', I do not mean 'following the rules'. I mean something more analogous to 'hacking the system'. My definition of social awareness is, to some degree, not allowing arbitrary societal restraints to prevent you from making wealth and meaningful connections. In this sense, the single best lesson a student can learn wrt bureaucratic hurdles is that there is a better way.

Re: Many teachers...grading...for compliance - not for mastering course material

#30
post #26

Watch out, I am going to generalize here... In my experience, in the US, EMPLOYEES in marketing, sales, management, finance, and operations do much better if they have high "life/social" skills even when their level of intelligence or knowledge are lower than others. However, this pattern doesn't fit IT/software and engineering (hard sciences) where creativity and knowledge are required. Some of the best engineers ha…

Great perspective. I'd shy away from institutionalized evaluation of students in favor of self-evaluation, though. I think the various systems in place in the EU where people are funnelled into track A, B or C put needless constraints on peoples' lives. That said, I wholeheartedly agree with your breakdown.
Post reply on HN