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Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

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Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#141

Post by dragonwriter »

milemi wrote: post #130
dragonwriter wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. No, it's not, because human trafficking can occur without crossing an limited-migration border. As usually used, it's very close to the union of de facto slavery and sex work. (To be fair, those categories have significant overlap, but there's a lot of push to include the parts of the latter that aren't the former within the reach of of the term.)

You mean there are people being "human trafficked" in their countries of origin? Can you provide an example?

> You mean there are people being "human trafficked" in their countries of origin?

Yes; there are also people who are legal immigrants who are trafficked only after arriving legally (immigrants, even legal ones, are often a vulnerable population.) And, even when illegal immigrants are trafficked, that is also often post-arrival, not part of how they can immigrate.

> Can you provide an example?

The one that is most frequently features in media reports is domestic sex trafficking of underage girls; but there is a lot more (surprisingly good coverage of a lot of variations is found, for now, on Wikipedia's page on trafficking in California [0], which is flagged for excessive detail.)

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Califor...

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#142

Post by steveeq1 »

MiroF wrote: post #50
outside1234 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people that were the raw materials of the sex trafficing.

No don't you see? It's obviously a feminist conspiracy /s since it can be hard to tell on this site

HN is a fairly socially liberal site.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#143

Post by JamesBarney »

Pharmakon wrote: post #122
hrktb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There will never be a legal market for underage girls, slaves, etc. Tangential, but I feel there is always an effort to cater to part of these "dark" markets with as harmless as possible ersatz (underage fictional porn, dolls/robotics, etc), but there will still be a strong negative reaction from some part of the society trying to ban the ersatz as a slippery slope. I get that for any action there will always be a…

It’s a very emotional subject for a lot of people, and while like you I see ersatz products as a good choice for people who would otherwise engage in the real thing, I also know that it’s a hard position to promulgate. For one, there isn’t a clear consensus as to whether or not (for example) fantasy underage porn/dolls acts to reduce or increase offender’s likliehood to offend. There is the argument that it can be a…

This has been studied with pornography and sex crimes and it seems like there are two main findings.

People who consume more pornography and more violent pornography tend to be more violent people.

And when societies are exposed to more pornography the number of sex crimes stays the same or drops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_pornography

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#144

Post by gamblor956 »

will_brown wrote: post #68
uhhhhhhh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It assumes/alleges salesforce knew that Backpage was in human trafficking and they knew backpage was their customer at the same time, neither of which they prove or even attempt to prove. Gonna wait on the courts for this one, so far its all too much implied and nothing for actual facts.

>It assumes/alleges salesforce knew that Backpage was in human trafficking and they knew backpage was their customer at the same time, neither of which they prove or even attempt to prove. They haven’t “even attempted to prove their claims?” Have you read the plaintiffs Complaint? What do you think they brought the lawsuit for if not to prove their claims?

A lot of lawsuits are filed without the plaintiff being able to prove their claims.

Even as I speak, a California House Rep (Nunes) is suing a non-existent creature for social media defamation. Nunes cannot prove his claims.

Hell, we have an entire class of laws (anti-SLAPP laws) which exist penalize nuisance lawsuits filed for the sole purpose of silencing or harassing defendants.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#145

Post by Macross8299 »

Jolter wrote: post #118
Macross8299 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human trafficking is part of the prostitution supply chain. Is that an inherent fact of prostitution or a function of prostitution's dubious legal status? One could make similar arguments about ultra-violent criminal cartels and marijuana in the past. "Smoking cannabis isn't distinct from funding Los Zetas in practice"

There are indications that the illegal status of prostitution does not in fact contribute to more trafficking, but the opposite. http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitu... "This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to…

Interesting that this study accounted for regional differences between prostitution legalization regimes, definitely something that needs to be considered considering these kind of markets do not exist in a borderless vacuum.

Have to wonder if the scale effect dominating the substitution effect hints that perhaps the Swedish model is optimal for reducing trafficking wholesale while reducing harm (i.e. Johns need strong disincentives in order to not be terribly indifferent people in aggregate) They suggest that the Swedish model reduces the scale effect but not enough data to say if it increases the substitution effect.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#146

Post by superkuh »

The entire 'sex trafficking' thing is a manufactured moral drama. It doesn't actually exist at scale. All the large 'sex trafficking' courts set up a few years ago have now closed due to lack of cases.

This is just the normal government/media cycle of using kids and/or sex in order to pass laws (ie, FOSTA/SESTA) to violate the rights of individuals and empower the state.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#147

Post by [deleted] »

will_brown wrote: post #99
uhhhhhhh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I needed a "yet" at the end of that for literalists. I stated "waiting for the courts" where they would prove their claims. Specifically, I'm not going to form an opinion on an article with no facts

>Specifically, I'm not going to form an opinion on an article with no facts It’s very odd you say the article has “no facts”, yet it provides dates for these business dealings, invoices and salesforce anti human trafficking/prostitution efforts...what do you consider a fact? Do you believe salesforce had no idea what backpage was doing and how salesforce products facilitated the same? While waiting years for the cour…

[deleted]

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#148

Post by trhway »

will_brown wrote: post #124
trhway wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>SalesForce was well aware of backpages business practices and activities backpage had been doing its business in the open in USA for almost 10 years when it became client of Salesforce in 2013. So, until 2018 no DA was bothered by the human trafficking supposedly rampant on backpage during that time, while it sounds that it was Salesforce's burden to do that the DAs hadn't and wouldn't for years - i.e. to perform in…

>Do we really want a massive SaaS company to criminally investigate its clients at its own initiative? I think my arms dealer provides a much clearer example of facts removed from tech where people in HN are understandably defensive. The law doesn’t require a seller of goods/services to investigate a buyers intent, but the law does create liability if the seller knew or should have known the buyer intended to use the…

>I think my arms dealer provides a much clearer example of facts removed from tech where people in HN are understandably defensive.

guns are much simpler situation, and this is why it doesn't make the situation clearer. Imagine if that specific gun dealer could look into the brain of a buyer. Would you hold him accountable for not checking the Parkland shooter's brain?

>the law does create liability if the seller knew or should have known the buyer intended to use the good/service in the commission of a crime.

Is SaaS company "should have known" what is in the data it is SaaS-ing? We know that the answer is "yes" for banks according to the explicitly written money laundering, etc. laws. There arent such explicit laws for SaaS, for Facebook, etc. Is Facebook liable if somebody uses it organize a crime like say a bank robbery or an unpermitted protest?

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#149

Post by skywhopper »

hajile wrote: post #22

Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? Salesforce is a platform (albeit a horrible one I never want to work with again) and provides services to whoever pays. Illegal actions are between the local government and the user. Criminals lie. They could claim to be a humanitarian company while trafficking. The only way for Salesforce to know would be to manually investigate all th…

According to the article, the lawsuit is predicated on the assertion that Salesforce did know how its products were being used. I don't know anything about the facts here, but if that's true, then it sounds like they might have some legal responsibility.

Unlike what you are saying, the case is not about whether or not Salesforce should have known they were supporting criminal activity. Rather, the lawsuit asserts that they did know.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#150

Post by [deleted] »

milemi wrote: post #130
dragonwriter wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human trafficking is just another word for illegal immigration. No, it's not, because human trafficking can occur without crossing an limited-migration border. As usually used, it's very close to the union of de facto slavery and sex work. (To be fair, those categories have significant overlap, but there's a lot of push to include the parts of the latter that aren't the former within the reach of of the term.)

You mean there are people being "human trafficked" in their countries of origin? Can you provide an example?

[deleted]
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