Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 189 posts

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#131

Post by creaghpatr »

JamesBarney wrote: post #87
will_brown wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? If a company provides products/services to someone with the knowledge those products/services will be used for a crime...then yes. For example it’s legal for an arms dealer to sell a gun, but illegal to sell a gun if the seller knows the gun is being purchased with the intent of being used in a crime. Here what you have is Salesforce w…

Craigslist also had an adult section. Should anyone who sold software to Craigslist be held legally responsible as well?

Yeah, but on Craigslist you can't lead capture and convert to contacts and opportunities with cross-object reporting /s

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#132

Post by darawk »

hajile wrote: post #22

Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? Salesforce is a platform (albeit a horrible one I never want to work with again) and provides services to whoever pays. Illegal actions are between the local government and the user. Criminals lie. They could claim to be a humanitarian company while trafficking. The only way for Salesforce to know would be to manually investigate all th…

> Then again, in lots of jurisdictions today, a landlord can be held liable for the tenant committing a crime.

Whoa, is that true? Can you give a citation for that? That seems insane to me.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#133

Post by will_brown »

JamesBarney wrote: post #87
will_brown wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? If a company provides products/services to someone with the knowledge those products/services will be used for a crime...then yes. For example it’s legal for an arms dealer to sell a gun, but illegal to sell a gun if the seller knows the gun is being purchased with the intent of being used in a crime. Here what you have is Salesforce w…

Craigslist also had an adult section. Should anyone who sold software to Craigslist be held legally responsible as well?

I can’t answer “if we should”...only as I explained above that under the law what you describe isn’t enough on its own to create liability for the service provide, the legal threshold is whether the seller knew the buyer would use the good/service in commission of a crime.

So for example the power company who sold power to run backpage, could they be liable? Probably not.

But a tech company who allegedly custom built a database to facilitate backpages human trafficking/prostitution activities...maybe

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#134

Post by dragonwriter »

trhway wrote: post #94
will_brown wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? If a company provides products/services to someone with the knowledge those products/services will be used for a crime...then yes. For example it’s legal for an arms dealer to sell a gun, but illegal to sell a gun if the seller knows the gun is being purchased with the intent of being used in a crime. Here what you have is Salesforce w…

>SalesForce was well aware of backpages business practices and activities backpage had been doing its business in the open in USA for almost 10 years when it became client of Salesforce in 2013. So, until 2018 no DA was bothered by the human trafficking supposedly rampant on backpage during that time, while it sounds that it was Salesforce's burden to do that the DAs hadn't and wouldn't for years - i.e. to perform in…

> So, until 2018 no DA was bothered by the human trafficking supposedly rampant on backpage during that time

Backpage was working hard at outwardly projecting an image of fighting trafficking; it's efforts to conceal and promote trafficking were hidden in its backend software and internal processes. To the extent Salesforce was involved in implementing that software, it's quite plausible that they would have had actual awareness of the details of those efforts well before any DA did.

(Also, DAs had frequently pursued sex trafficking allegedly being done through Backpage prior to the time they had uncovered sufficient evidence to charge that Backpage itself was actively and deliberately promoting it.)

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#135

Post by oneshoe »

JamesBarney wrote: post #87
will_brown wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? If a company provides products/services to someone with the knowledge those products/services will be used for a crime...then yes. For example it’s legal for an arms dealer to sell a gun, but illegal to sell a gun if the seller knows the gun is being purchased with the intent of being used in a crime. Here what you have is Salesforce w…

Craigslist also had an adult section. Should anyone who sold software to Craigslist be held legally responsible as well?

I do not believe to be true any longer. A recent law passed by congress, H.R. 1865 made that illegal in an effort to fight online sex trafficking.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#136

Post by luxuryballs »

evil people can use money for evil, does that make money evil and thus we should avoid having money? then only evil people would have all the money

evil people can use guns for evil, does that make guns evil?

evil comes from the heart into the hand and into the tool

if we demonize the tool then we surrender it entirely to evil

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#137

Post by smallgovt »

will_brown wrote: post #40
hajile wrote: post #22

Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? Salesforce is a platform (albeit a horrible one I never want to work with again) and provides services to whoever pays. Illegal actions are between the local government and the user. Criminals lie. They could claim to be a humanitarian company while trafficking. The only way for Salesforce to know would be to manually investigate all th…

>Should we also allow Microsoft to be sued for all the criminals that use windows? If a company provides products/services to someone with the knowledge those products/services will be used for a crime...then yes. For example it’s legal for an arms dealer to sell a gun, but illegal to sell a gun if the seller knows the gun is being purchased with the intent of being used in a crime. Here what you have is Salesforce w…

GP isn’t asking whether it's legal to sue software companies for the acts of users. He’s asking if it's right and/or sensible.

There are many, many corporations that sold services to Backpage. If the red line is built around awareness of wrongdoing, you are just going to create an incentive for corporations to stop being socially active and an incentive to remain ignorant to customers' backgrounds.

Yes, we may want to regulate certain influential industries to require them to do due diligence on their clientele. No, I don't think it makes sense to penalize these players before this regulation is put in place due to the perverse incentives.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#138

Post by gnicholas »

will_brown wrote: post #124
trhway wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>SalesForce was well aware of backpages business practices and activities backpage had been doing its business in the open in USA for almost 10 years when it became client of Salesforce in 2013. So, until 2018 no DA was bothered by the human trafficking supposedly rampant on backpage during that time, while it sounds that it was Salesforce's burden to do that the DAs hadn't and wouldn't for years - i.e. to perform in…

>Do we really want a massive SaaS company to criminally investigate its clients at its own initiative? I think my arms dealer provides a much clearer example of facts removed from tech where people in HN are understandably defensive. The law doesn’t require a seller of goods/services to investigate a buyers intent, but the law does create liability if the seller knew or should have known the buyer intended to use the…

> but the law does create liability if the seller knew or should have known the buyer intended to use the good/service in the commission of a crime.

It does? I’m a (former) lawyer and this is news to me. Not saying it’s wrong, just wondering what the crime is (aiding and abetting? accomplice liability? conspiracy?) I’m not sure how any of these quite fit. Would love to be enlightened!

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#139

Post by JamesBarney »

will_brown wrote: post #133
JamesBarney wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist also had an adult section. Should anyone who sold software to Craigslist be held legally responsible as well?

I can’t answer “if we should”...only as I explained above that under the law what you describe isn’t enough on its own to create liability for the service provide, the legal threshold is whether the seller knew the buyer would use the good/service in commission of a crime. So for example the power company who sold power to run backpage, could they be liable? Probably not. But a tech company who allegedly custom built…

They custom built a database to facilitate an adult classifieds section. Which on its face is not illegal, and the argument it was illegal was based on a technicality related to filtering and word replacement that removed their safe harbor protections. The owners themselves did not know this until the court case was decided years later so it seems weird to presume that Salesforce could know it.

Re: Fifty Women Say Salesforce Helped Sex Traffickers Exploit Them

#140

Post by JamesBarney »

oneshoe wrote: post #135
JamesBarney wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist also had an adult section. Should anyone who sold software to Craigslist be held legally responsible as well?

I do not believe to be true any longer. A recent law passed by congress, H.R. 1865 made that illegal in an effort to fight online sex trafficking.

Backpage was shut down before the law went into effect so I assume the Salesforce work was done before the law went into effect as well.
Post reply on HN