Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#41

Post by rdtsc » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

> Behind all the fluff, there is a simple explanation: they save insane amounts of money.

Yes pretty much. It's disappointing that companies cannot be honest with their employees and just say that simply. People can understand price per sq. foot, it's not inverting binary trees or building rockets.

But when they are told stuff like "We can _all_ collaborate better! Look at all this (busy) work happening!". It insults people's intelligence. It's like giving a kid who doesn't like potatoes, carrots and telling them they are just orange potatoes. Yes, I have tried that with my 2 year old and it works great. But doing it with engineers who you trust to build your product is just crazy.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#42

Post by Kiro » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

I feel like I'm the only one who likes open-plan offices.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#43

Post by xiphias2 » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #8

Because it's cheap. Less walls to build, more employees packed on to a floor. Do you lose more money than you're saving due to decreased productivity? Maybe. But that's hard to prove, and "This office proposal is $X million cheaper because we can lease three fewer floors" is very straightforward.

Wall prices don't matter at all, it's all about real estate space. Actually at a big Co I was working at they took out the walls to fit more people.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#44

Post by saberience » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

Every time this topic comes up there are a bunch of HN people saying open-plan is "clearly the worst" and that they want cubicles back. Note: this is hardly scientific. It's just your personal anecdote, ok, you don't like being around many other people and would prefer a cubicle or private office. That's fine.

However, don't discount the fact that other people exist that, gasp, actually like open-plan offices. Like myself! I'm one of those more sociable engineer types and I love the open plan bullpen at my current company, I love the bantering and conversations we have there, and I love that due to our social nature we have built a really cohesive TEAM that likes each other and supports each other. The atmosphere, friendliness, and fun, simply wouldn't be as great if we were all in cubicles or separate offices.

So now you have my anecdote too, which is of course not science. But I know there are plenty of others like me (unless I'm some sort of engineer unique snowflake out of the millions out there, which seems unlikely).

Instead of simply condemning "open-plan" as the "worst," why not try and understand why it works and helps some people and teams and why some others don't seem to like it. Maybe it's personality dependent, maybe it depends on the exact size of the open-plan area, there are hundreds of other factors that could make a difference here.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#45

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #39

wlesieutre wrote: post #8

Because it's cheap. Less walls to build, more employees packed on to a floor. Do you lose more money than you're saving due to decreased productivity? Maybe. But that's hard to prove, and "This office proposal is $X million cheaper because we can lease three fewer floors" is very straightforward.

I think there's also a cargo cult mentality that is really hard to deal with. Many successful companies today started on a shoestring, where the money saved by cramming everyone into the same space allowed the company to grow headcount quickly, and it is really hard to separate the things that contributed to the company's success from the incidentals that arose from its founding.

Do the 400k+ engineers at Google still work in open office elbow to elbow?

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#46

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #34

Reedx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The impact on productivity also depends on the type of work. I suspect it's a net loss in the long run for things that require or benefit from deep work.

SpaceX uses tightly packed open plan.

Even the people who do the hard engineering? In most companies the number of people who do that work is pretty small.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#47

Post by deathanatos » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

jordache wrote: post #32

it's all anecdotal opinions

No, it isn't; there have been studies done on open office floorplans, and they come to the same, obvious conclusion: they're bad on any metric you care to measure them on, except the one the article points out: if you ignore the productivity loss and all the other costs, they're cheaper. From the Wikipedia article on open floor plans,

> A systematic survey of research upon the effects of open-plan offices found frequent negative effects in some traditional workplaces: high levels of noise, stress, conflict, high blood pressure and a high staff turnover.

> Open-plan offices have been found to elevate the risk of employees needing to take time off for sickness.

The article's citations will allow you to delve into the studies, if you wish.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_plan

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#48

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

paddy_m wrote: post #30

I used to have a drive that required an hour drive each way in and out of Manhattan. When I arrived at the building, I shared a room with two other engineers who were team mates. I had so much energy after a day of work in that environment, including the drive, than I did at a regular NYC open office. Open office's suck energy through distraction. I have basically given up on finding a job that would give me an offic…

" Open office's suck energy through distraction."

that's how I feel. Since working in a cube farm I am totally shot when I come home. The noise, lack of daylight and visual distractions suck all energy out of me. There is no escape from the stress while I am at work.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#49

Post by dcolkitt » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

notjustanymike wrote: post #7

At least in NYC, it's because of rent.

Average compensation for software engineers in NYC is $150k+ a year. Add in benefits and payroll taxes, etc. and you're looking at $180k+

Office space leases for around $75/year in NYC. A cramped open floor plan requires 80 square feet per person. A spacious 2 window private office is 150 square feet.

A company only saves about $5000 a year, even in the expensive NYC market. If an open floor plan results in an engineer being distracted for even 2 minutes an hour, it costs more in lost productivity than it saves in rent.

Re: Open-plan office is the worst. Why can't we kill it?

#50

Post by root_axis » Wed, Mar 27, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

I find the open office preferable to a cubicle farm. Most cubicle setups don't offer much in the way of privacy, especially with regard to noise and conversation, but they are dreary and soul-draining to look upon. Obviously a private office for teams or individuals is ideal, but if it's between open office and cubicles, I'll pick the open office every time.