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European Parliament approves copyright reform

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Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#781
post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These platforms are run by big corporations that turn a huge profit I take issue when people use the word profit to mean some evil, shameful thing. Youtube has amazing content and tools, and I'm sure a lot of their profit is re-invested in the platform. I doubt these other platforms come close in terms of functionality and UX. Peertube site design looks like it's from 2005. I know that might not be indicative of th…

>I take issue when people use the word profit to mean some evil, shameful thing. You left out the "by way of selling your personal data, violating your privacy, and having a persuasive (addictive) design in order to glue you to the screen so they can maximize their ad revenue, dismissing any human cost those practices entail" part. I don't associate the word profit with a bad connotation univocally; that's only an as…

These companies are self-interested, and for companies "self interest" usually means "customer-focus". Their reputation and the long-term health and loyalty of their users are worth a lot to them.

But yeah, Facebook tries to make Facebook a site you want to visit. Youtube wants you to watch YouTube. Should they try to make sites that aren't engaging?

Maximising ad revenue also seems not terrible for users? A week ago I saw an ad for some pants, and I'm wearing them now. I spent ages walking around town looking for pants I liked. Hopefully next week they start showing me shoes. IMO advertisers and these platforms tend to have incentives pretty closely aligned with their users'.

(Dunno about selling data. I thought that had stopped happening, and I don't like the idea.)

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting. If the dark web becomes popular though, won't the same people try to regulate it? They could make .onion link illegal for ISPs to load and kill it overnight.

That's actually already been proposed in Germany. The parliamentary state secretary of the interior ministry just last month said: "People who use the darknet usually are up to no good. This simple realization should be reflected in our legal system." and "I understand why the darknet can be useful in autocratic systems. But in a free and open democracy, in my opinion, there is no legitimate use."

I use Tor + VPN just to read Reddit these days :D

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just ask Napster, LimeWire, Scour, Kazaa, Grokster, Madster, and eDonkey2000, all of which were brought down by injunctions. All of those were commercial outings trying to make money out of their proprietary piracy client software, the open source versions are still around, and even very old networks like ed2k is still up and running. The current 'dominant form' is bittorrent, and from what I can tell it is doing ju…

Doing fine, as in, a tiny insignificant chunk of the userbase of the major consumer platforms use them. They are not serving most people, and are frustrating to use. Left out of this discussion is simply some Chinese company, like Douyin/Tiktok just hosting a Youtube competitor, and hoisting a giant middle finger to the EU. The EU will have to erect their own great firewall to stop it.

So you suggest that, in order to compete with China, the EU should allow Google to violate copyright law at large? I don't feel like this is a compelling argument, as it suggests the rule of law should simply be dismissed for any business which might have a competitor in China.

And yes, the networks that survived are small, and not making money, which is the correct outcome for a network built on wide-scale abuse of copyright. Your response backs up my point, about how the media goes after large scale infringers, rather than worrying about small-time offenses.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#785
post #762
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the UK leaves, not a single native English speaking country in there Oi! Ireland and Malta would have a word with you, mate. > I can just block that region (not the biggest one anyway Not the biggest, but the richest.

>> Not the biggest, but the richest It depends on what you mean by rich. From a GDP PPP perspective there are issues on short, medium and long term when compared with other countries. For example: China is richer than the whole of the EU (incl UK). US is almost as rich as the EU. India is 1/2 and Japan 1/4. *By rich I mean GDP PPP.

The EU isn't close to as rich as the US, the parent comment was far off the mark.

Not only does the US have about ~40% of all the millionaires on earth all by itself, its GDP per capita is 77% higher than the EU ($33,700 per capita per the Worldbank 2017 figures; versus $59,700 that year for the US). Its nominal GDP is also about $2 trillion higher, despite having roughly 200 million fewer people.

PPP is a near worthless measurement if you're a business trying to sell goods. It's the absolute last thing you'd rely on to gauge the pricing power in a market for a product or service.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#786

I'm trying to get my head around how CDA 230 will work with these new EU regulations... https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230

My guess is that anyone in the USA who doesn't do business in Europe will be able to get away with saying "F you" to the EU.

You shouldn't be getting downvoted for that, you're entirely correct.

My new company in the US can safely ignore the EU when it comes to both Article 13 and GDPR. There is nothing they can do about it. I can take on EU users, who can freely upload content, and I do not need to comply with the EU filter laws.

There is merely one primary requirement: all of my business and infrastructure must remain outside of the EU. So long as I do that, I get to avoid those laws. This of course isn't unique to the US, the same is true of most other non-EU nations.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing fine, as in, a tiny insignificant chunk of the userbase of the major consumer platforms use them. They are not serving most people, and are frustrating to use. Left out of this discussion is simply some Chinese company, like Douyin/Tiktok just hosting a Youtube competitor, and hoisting a giant middle finger to the EU. The EU will have to erect their own great firewall to stop it.

So you suggest that, in order to compete with China, the EU should allow Google to violate copyright law at large? I don't feel like this is a compelling argument, as it suggests the rule of law should simply be dismissed for any business which might have a competitor in China. And yes, the networks that survived are small, and not making money, which is the correct outcome for a network built on wide-scale abuse of…

No, I suggest that modern copyright is a regressive system, and the enforcement mechanisms being imposed on behalf of wealthy publishing guilds is essentially regulatory capture that pretty much increases the risk of greater surveillance and policing in general. If you look at DMCA takedowns on YouTube, the obvious pirates are caught pretty quickly, I know, because I frequently search for marvel movies clips, and they disappear almost within hours of me finding them. The disturbing cases, which you claim won't happen, are small time channels where people's content is flagged because of fair use, even 15 second clips of background music for an intro get a take down request. Seriously, do you think 15 seconds of someone's song on a title sequence is going to deprive the originator of someone paying to hear his full song?

That the over-policing of copyright will cast a chilling effect on independent media creation, that it will affect fair use and transformative works, and that the EU copyright laws will cause all online providers to err on the side of false positives. If you think automated takedowns, de-monetization, and capricious account bans are bad now, just wait until platforms are put in the untenable position of facing either huge fines for under policing, or lesser punishments for over policing.

I already told you that distributed networks have been taken down by concerted government action. Torrent sites have been shutdown. People have been charged during the Napster-era for hundreds of thousands of $$$ for songs on their hard drive. Here, how does this back up your point: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/sep/11/minnesota...

As I pointed out, my ISP, Comcast, is already deep packet scanning network traffic and automatically flagging what it things are pirate activity.

You continually confuse real piracy, like someone uploading a whole movie or album, duped from pristine original source -- what I'd call bootleg copies, with stuff like a kid uploading a dance video to a backing track and going viral. Do you really think someone singing karaoke or dancing to a 30 year old song means that person should have their video taken down?

Even song covers, some girl or guy practicing singing, and and playing music on their own piano or guitar, gets taken down. I think that's absurd, especially for music decades old that was released before the singer was born. Artists being sued for sampling or chord sequences, against, a travesty. I've a big fan of Kirby Ferguson's _Everything is a Remix_, which points out that some of the biggest complainers of infringement of their work, are in fact, thieves themselves.

If YouTube becomes too hard for Europeans to publish on, because it turns into a hyper-curated nanny state, my point is, people may turn to TikTok, Bilibili, or others which will happily host the same content, but whose government cares little about helping to enforce foreign government ideas about IP. The end result of this law will be that it will be ineffectual in reducing piracy, but will be very effectual in casting a chilling effect on actual indie producers, and make it incredibly hard for competitors to YouTube start up in Europe.

Limit copyright to 14 years, the original duration (28 with renewable). That was the law for the first 180 years of copyright. Given the hyper-speed of internet time, if anything, copyright duration should be SHORTER not the century long disaster it is now. If you limited copyright to a much shorter term, I might be convinced to buy into your overly restrictionist stance, but as it is, lifetime+ copyright + orwellian enforcement mechanisms is a bridge too far.

Also, you do realize that most of the people concerned about losing the most money to copyright infringement are big international media companies and guilds, like Disney, or MPAA, RIAA, GEMA, etc and that you're essentially defending Disney Corp's right, whether you realize it or not, to block Star Wars parodies and fan films. Or GEMA's right to block your daughter's violin cover. Unless you think algorithm filters are going to magically determine 'fair use' between a kid cover, or a fan film, and a true bootleg, the end result is going to be platforms over-filtering.

I'll also point out that Max Schrems, whose strongly campaigns for GPDR and against Google and Facebook, actually is vehemently against Article 13, and backs mine and EFF's position.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#788
post #390
post #321

I know this is an extremely unpopular opinion, but I’m actually fine with more equality in copyright legislation. These “disastrous” copyright laws already apply to you and me, and if you think they don’t, then just try hosting a top 1 music video on your personal domain. Where the laws don’t apply is if your service is to host user content and you have the size to circumvent justice. YouTube makes a lot of money off…

I don’t think YouTube is against this law either. It limits their competition by raising the barrier of entry for the next YouTube. The main problem with this type of legislation is they hurt competition because only the large, established corporations can afford the legal and technical investments required for compliance. YouTube isn’t phased by this, they’ll barely notice but they’re happy knowing a tiny startup fr…

Except the law includes exceptions and much less rigorous rules for startups and small-medium companies. It’s directly targeting YouTube, Facebook and the like, in an attempt to make them pay authors and creators.

Unless you’re against copyrights in general, I have a really hard time seeing why you’d be against this law.

It simply pushes the responsibility from you, the YouTube uploader, to YouTube itself. Maybe that will lead to YouTube preventing you from uploading videos, maybe YouTube will block Europe, but I honestly doubt it because of money, and in either case, the EU represents the people of Europe, YouTube represents a few shareholders, I know whom I personally prefer taking a lead on copyrights.

I get the people who are opposed to copyrights in general, but I’m just not.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#789
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after the UK leaves, not a single native English speaking country in there Oi! Ireland and Malta would have a word with you, mate. > I can just block that region (not the biggest one anyway Not the biggest, but the richest.

If it keeps going like this the EU is gonna waste all its capital and become poor. Yeah, it looks like economy is still running, but you can't escape the laws of economics. Many don't see it because they're not into politics, but the EU, Germany, France, Italy are making an article 13 for all kind of industries, every day. Eventually you run out of capital (including willpower and time) and a slow descent become a co…

yeah cost of creating new business is going up, taxes and red tape around existing business are going up, taxes to the middle class are skyrocketing, welfare is dropping and everyone's wondering "why is Europe having a youth unemployment problem"?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the reason the political process, funding, advertisements are all regulated in the UK. To supposedly prevent such things. Clearly struggling in current conditions, but redesigning the oversight is a different conversation. It's not just one ad or campaign, or funding, but a whole interminable series of them. At some point it's no longer poetic licence and firmly into fraudulent. The vote should - based on the…

Look, I'm not British, so I don't know all the details on the Brexit campaign. I just see a certain thing all the time (generally on the part of people on the left, though I am certain that the roles have been reversed many times in the past), which is to point to some disinformation (Russian meddling in the U.S., whatever happened around Brexit in the U.K.) and then draw the conclusion that the only reason people on…

I know that there's been voter blaming for Brexit, Trump and other surprising results around the world, but I don't hold with blaming the voters for being foolish/gullible. Even if the surprise option won, or especially if they were sold a pup. There's usually a reasonably simple underlying reason too -- unemployment, tax, corruption and disillusion with current politicians, an especially compelling campaign or a particularly poor one, etc.

Some of the reports of Russian involvement seem just a tad too convenient. Besides, much of the Trump/Brexit phenomena is explainable without. Maybe there was foreign meddling too, who knows?

The grievances seem clear for anyone who cares to look - those areas and people hardest hit by deindustrialisation, globalisation and have been deprived regions for knocking on 40 years, and also hardest hit by austerity voted most for leave, and for Trump. The chance to kick the system, hope for jobs, for a different way. So blame silly voters or the parties might have to admit that leaving those regions to rot may have been a mistake. Admitting mistakes isn't on message, so politicians can't do that!

Of media, I suspect for most of us old media - TV and papers - has far less an effect than ever before. So they get more and more outrageous to try and stay relevant. Most now get news from a selection of sites rather than the morning paper or evening TV. For older folks who still have the habit of news from a single source, I suspect they still have impact. I really doubt any media site or paper can turn an election like they could in the 70s and 80s.

Advertising on the other hand is much more insidious. I'm used to seeing ads from both sides of every campaign. Personalised net and social media ads mean people can be targeted with what they're susceptible to - their own personal hot issues. That has the potential for effect the old media used to have, perhaps far more, and is invisible to all except recipient. I was certainly very surprised (and disappointed) by some of the FB ads revealed after the referendum.

I think we may be in violent agreement. :)

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