Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system • Hacker News Board

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#131

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

StudentStuff wrote: post #86

btrettel wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not everyone is in a position to replace their car I agree, which is why I said taking away someone's license is net counterproductive. Also, I'm not suggesting that people should become cyclists, just that driving is expensive.

On the flipside, a 45min commute in bad traffic can be a breeze on an eBike. Building mine ran $800 all in, and its been quite a commute changer. Ultimately, these are just bandaids for low-density areas, greater density is needed to make the US livable without long distance commuting.

> greater density is needed to make the US livable without long distance commuting

It might help distance, but it usually doesn't do much to help time.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#132

Post by droithomme » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

LeanderK wrote: post #41

AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

Are you serious? That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work? then this is really counterproductive.

> That sounds like a stupid idea, what if you need a car for/to reach work?

The point of these laws in the US is to punish and destroy people for the raw pleasure that power gives, and is not to seek rehabilitation or justice. The US is still a lynch mob oriented Puritan society on every level. The evil must be tortured and killed. The righteous must be elevated and never questioned, even if they are burning witches or werewolves at the stake without evidence that either even exists at all.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#133

Post by deogeo » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

massivecali wrote: post #45

AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

According to this quora answer [1] that quotes a whole bunch of court cases, the whole 'privilege, not a right' thing is bullshit.

Try taking it to the logical conclusion - what else is a privilege, and can therefore be arbitrarily denied? A bank account? Traveling by plane or train? Connecting your house to the power/water/sewage grid? Having a post address? Buying or renting a house? Sending your children to school? If you buy this logic, there's a whole bunch of 'privileges' that the state can deny you using some excuse, that would make living utterly impossible.

That the state takes away this right doesn't mean you should call it a privilege, just as you wouldn't call freedom a privilege because an innocent man was jailed.

[1] https://www.quora.com/Who-determined-that-driving-is-a-privi...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#134

Post by thoughtstheseus » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #108

gamblor956 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.

> Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. Neither one is really optional, so does it matter?

In some ways yes, in others no. There is a difference between having the possibility of optionality (you can try something else if you want) and it being completely not optional.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#135

Post by Tomte » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #64

btrettel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

I'm also a cyclist, and spent most of my life biking exclusively, but not everyone is in a position to replace their car. If your car commute is 45 minutes on the highway, a bicycle is not going to help you when you lose your license.

Even much shorter distances, say, five kilometers. Don't forget health and fitness.

It's always cringy when bike activists just assume that everybody can get to work on a bike fast and without sweating.

Yes, if they started now, many could do that in a few months.

But the whole discussion tends to veer into fat shaming real quick.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#136

Post by TulliusCicero » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #127

TulliusCicero wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving being a privilege, not a right, is only awkward in the US because of how absurdly car dominant it is. Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people.

> Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people. I don't think I agree with the "most" in that statement, at least in combination with "barely an issue".

To my knowledge, other developed countries where driving seems really necessary for most people are Canada and Australia, maybe NZ?

Admittedly I'm far from an expert in this, but I live in Germany now, have visited a bunch of countries in Europe, plus Japan, and that's certainly the impression I get. Right now our family of 3 living in a sleepy part of Munich gets by fine without a car, and we've visited lots of little suburbs and towns in Germany that are still highly walkable/bikable, with decent transit connections.

Not that having a car wouldn't be a big convenience bonus for us sometimes, but it doesn't feel critical at all.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#137

Post by function_seven » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #122

function_seven wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. Thanks for the detail. As far as I know, (and correct me if I'm wrong), China didn't have a credit score system as developed as what we're used to in the US (i.e. Equifax, TransUnion, etc.) But what the social credit system represents is a leapfrog over that to something much more invasive and ubiquitous. I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many vid…

> I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many video games. But I do want to be able to check their contractor's license and make sure there aren't complaints. Some of the pilot projects are intended to work more like that. For example, if you wanted to confirm that "Wenzhou Overseas Travel Ltd." is legit, you could check Wenzhou's portal and search for the name. htt…

Yeah, and that's fine. Especially for corporations and other fictitious entities. It's the highly personal aspects of this system that disgust me. The personal habits and nickel-and-dime shit that it vacuums up to determine a score.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#138

Post by TulliusCicero » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #96

massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

It's a privilege sure. Except the US is really good at building dysfunctional cities that require a car to live.

Sad that you're getting downvoted, but it's true. Almost all US cities are pretty terrible to get around in without a car. That's bad for people's budgets generally, but it's especially bad for the poor/working class where a car represents a substantial financial burden, and of course some other demographics like the handicapped, elderly, and college students.

Plus it's more expensive for the government, causes more pollution, generates more danger, and hurts people's health. Not a lot of upside there.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#139

Post by golemiprague » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

How is it different to someone who is perceived as too far right in the US? We have already heard about people not being served by tech giants and banks just because of their political views. It never goes the other way around though.

So in China it is the government doing it based on their values and in the US it is facebook or patreon or even regular banks doing it based on their values. In both cases it is an authoritarian decision by a monopoly or coordinated which the simple citizen got no control of and there is no any transparency to their actions.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#140

Post by _bxg1 » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

Studies, especially in recent years, have shown that punishment is not an effective way of improving on self-destructive behavior. Usually things like procrastination and substance abuse are irrational symptoms of emotional drain and hopelessness, and punishment exacerbates those problems. There was an HN post about it just the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411. Poverty and debt tend to also protract out from this kind of emotional bankruptcy.

I hold some small hope that despite their lack of empathy, regimes will at least see the practical side of how ineffective this kind of policy is and how much it inevitably will hurt their economy, after trying it out for a while. Hopefully that lesson will be learned while it's still mostly contained to China.