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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#121

Post by freedomben »

siruncledrew wrote: post #120
AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

Is there a reason why student debt and not other kinds of debt (e.g. credit card)? Also, how does the DMV know what someone’s debt history is?

Yes, because the government took over most student loans a few years ago[1], and they make the rules (and want you to pay).

[1] https://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/Feds-take-o...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#122

Post by yorwba »

function_seven wrote: post #35
pxue wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All your points are valid. However you're only looking at it in a way that's familiar to you. Here's a personal example, my parents bought a condo in China in a new development area, searched around for renovators and found this shop close by that seemed fairly legit. A show room, full staff, decent looking portfolio, sales people looked legit and they had legit looking supply chain relationship as well. My parents w…

You're right. Thanks for the detail. As far as I know, (and correct me if I'm wrong), China didn't have a credit score system as developed as what we're used to in the US (i.e. Equifax, TransUnion, etc.) But what the social credit system represents is a leapfrog over that to something much more invasive and ubiquitous. I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many vid…

> I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many video games. But I do want to be able to check their contractor's license and make sure there aren't complaints.

Some of the pilot projects are intended to work more like that. For example, if you wanted to confirm that "Wenzhou Overseas Travel Ltd." is legit, you could check Wenzhou's portal and search for the name. https://wzcredit.gov.cn/creditSearch/getCompanyDetailInfo.ht...

Then you can see some basic information about the company (legal representative Chen Lili, services offered, address, registered capital of 10 million Yuan, founded in 1998...) and then a bunch of information that's supposed to help evaluate their creditworthiness or look them up in other systems. The section for negative information (underlined in orange) is empty. The most recent data is from 2017, though, so who knows whether the system is even updated anymore.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#123

Post by godelski »

mruts wrote: post #113
godelski wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what if you need a car for/to reach work? This is America. So the answer is almost certainly: "Yes, you need your car to reach work."

5% of Americans take public transit to get to work. I wouldn't call that an almost certainty that you need a car. An almost certainty would be maybe under <.001%

> 5% of Americans take public transit to get to work.

rephrasing:

95% of Americans take private transit to get to work. I would call that an almost certainty that you need a car.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#124

Post by pxue »

function_seven wrote: post #35
pxue wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All your points are valid. However you're only looking at it in a way that's familiar to you. Here's a personal example, my parents bought a condo in China in a new development area, searched around for renovators and found this shop close by that seemed fairly legit. A show room, full staff, decent looking portfolio, sales people looked legit and they had legit looking supply chain relationship as well. My parents w…

You're right. Thanks for the detail. As far as I know, (and correct me if I'm wrong), China didn't have a credit score system as developed as what we're used to in the US (i.e. Equifax, TransUnion, etc.) But what the social credit system represents is a leapfrog over that to something much more invasive and ubiquitous. I don't want to know if my contractor once smoked in a no-smoking area, of if they buy too many vid…

Yes. It could become Orwellian, and I do see the issue with what a comprehensive surveillance state could become.

Either way, China faces a very unique situation, but I do see overall improvement in living condition. I don't live there full time but visit often, I'd say the biggest challenge coming up will be dealing with the aging population (and their needs), the shrinking work force, and decrease in consumer confidence. The post-boomer generation did VERY well for themselves but I can't say the same for the millennials and beyond.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#125

Post by amaccuish »

btrettel wrote: post #55
AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

Upvoting because people seem to be unable to read the caveat at the end of your post.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#126

Post by gnaritas »

dang wrote: post #101
andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

Please keep the "whataboutism" trope off HN. It's a tired cliché that's only used to delegitimize discussion. Your comment would be just fine without the last sentence. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

[dead]

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#127

Post by vonmoltke »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #112
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

Driving being a privilege, not a right, is only awkward in the US because of how absurdly car dominant it is. Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people.

> Being unable to drive in many other developed countries is barely an issue for most people.

I don't think I agree with the "most" in that statement, at least in combination with "barely an issue".

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#128

Post by droithomme »

AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

> 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt

Might as well suspend your license if you owe money to the mafia.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#129

Post by rightbyte »

StudentStuff wrote: post #86
btrettel wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not everyone is in a position to replace their car I agree, which is why I said taking away someone's license is net counterproductive. Also, I'm not suggesting that people should become cyclists, just that driving is expensive.

On the flipside, a 45min commute in bad traffic can be a breeze on an eBike. Building mine ran $800 all in, and its been quite a commute changer. Ultimately, these are just bandaids for low-density areas, greater density is needed to make the US livable without long distance commuting.

I would happely bike 45 min to work 7 months a year when it's not freezing and I did so, till I left academia and took a industry job 45 min away with car.

The main problem for commuting efficiency is housing and barrier of entry for getting a job close to where I live or vice versa.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#130

Post by Tomte »

headcanon wrote: post #93
lisper wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but none of that changes the fact that suspending someone's driving privilege as a punishment for failing to pay a debt is incredibly stupid and counterproductive.

I was once sitting in a courtroom for something unrelated and saw a 19 year old kid go to jail for 3 months for not paying child support. Not sure how he's going to pay it back in there, but if all you have is a hammer...

That's certainly not the first remedy that the court has taken.

But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then?

We all don't know, but I strongly suspect no, and I strongly suspect the court has more than just my suspicions and calibrated its reaction accordingly.

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