Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system • Hacker News Board

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#101

Post by dang » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

Please keep the "whataboutism" trope off HN. It's a tired cliché that's only used to delegitimize discussion.

Your comment would be just fine without the last sentence.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#102

Post by iooi » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #57

iooi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point. Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people.

> Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.

Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#103

Post by godelski » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #92

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but only your ability to repay loans is considered by those, not you ur social behavior or connections.

For now.

I know you're not the person I was responding to, but the point I was responding to was this one

> The US had the _social_ credit system up and running for years...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#104

Post by iooi » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

thatcat wrote: post #89

iooi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point. Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people.

That is a very lazy way to construct an incentive system, sounds like an HR "innovation" not legislation.

Just to clarify, I'm not advocating for this system, it's just the way it is.

This is article is a good (albeit small) overview of the size of the issue: https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/13/us-debt-rate-auto-...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#105

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

iooi wrote: post #102

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.

Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...

> There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright

I dunno, having an owned-outright used beater seemed normal among my peer group when I was in/just out of college; having newer, better (relative to contemporaries) vehicles with financing is more common now that we're very well into careers. You can get a student loan with no credit history at pretty much the same terms as everyone else, but that is decidedly not he case for auto loans.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#106

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

iooi wrote: post #102

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Auto debt is usually the first payment people make since they absolutely need it to go to work. By tying student debt to the ability to drive, they're putting it on the same tier of priorities for people. But what if you don't have auto debt? That logic doesn't work if someone bought a car they could afford.

Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...

So those who didn't (for instance, I didn't have a car loan while I was paying off my student loan debt) should be punished by removing their means of transportation because that'll somehow get them to prioritize it at the same level as said paid-for car (which keep gas in it and change it's oil once in a while)? If an ex student is still living with mom and dad or using a borrowed car to get to work, there's an actual logical reason that their ability to get to that job should be compromised because they didn't pay their student debt?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#107

Post by btrettel » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

headcanon wrote: post #98

btrettel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

I'm sure it works great in some areas, but its completely unrealistic in others. Try running errands in Metro Detroit on a bike and come back and talk to me. With that said I would prefer if the municipalities were more bike friendly in the first place. I like driving, but I was certainly happiest when I lived in a different town and could bike to work.

To reiterate a point I made in another reply, I'm not advocating for cycling here, just pointing out that driving is expensive.

Also, I know an engineer who works on diesel engines in Detroit and commutes by bike. He seems to think Detroit is pretty good for cycling, actually, contrary to what I expected. Don't know about metro Detroit, though.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#108

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #71

moosey wrote: post #34

> In order for him to clear his debts, Kong argues, he needs to be able to succeed at his new business – but that is hard to do if prospective partners and customers shun him because of his official status as a “deadbeat.” This is awful. Totally admit it, they shouldn't do it, etc. About the same as being a released felon in the United States. We also allow financial information to be pulled for background checks in…

Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.

> Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated.

Neither one is really optional, so does it matter?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#109

Post by m-p-3 » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #47

massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

Sure, but none of that changes the fact that suspending someone's driving privilege as a punishment for failing to pay a debt is incredibly stupid and counterproductive.

Agreed. Most of us rely on driving to reach the workplace. It's not only a mere inconvenience to lose your licence, it's basically severing your access to your main source of financial support and could send you spiralling down in debts for a long time.

Sure, not meeting your responsibilities has to be dealt with and have consequences, but the consequences shouldn't have to be catastrophic and put you into an unrecoverable situation to act as a deterrent.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#110

Post by iooi » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #106

iooi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...

So those who didn't (for instance, I didn't have a car loan while I was paying off my student loan debt) should be punished by removing their means of transportation because that'll somehow get them to prioritize it at the same level as said paid-for car (which keep gas in it and change it's oil once in a while)? If an ex student is still living with mom and dad or using a borrowed car to get to work, there's an actu…

Again, I'm not advocating for this system, all the points you make are completely valid.

That said, this will move the needle for almost 50% of that population. Student debt is already non-dischargeable, and delinquencies are hitting record highs every quarter. Creditors are just trying to collect any way they can.

There's a lot of factors at work: the cost of education is insane, student loans are very easy to get, there is a ton of pressure to go to college, it's hard to think long term when you're 18, financial literacy is poor through high school, etc.