Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

inkstonenews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 335 posts

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#21

Post by yorwba »

ada1981 wrote: post #8
pxue wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is govern…

I don’t understand how someone ends up on the list. But I’m fairly certain I understand it more than you do. You can be put on the list for all sorts of things... “examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.”

You may be certain that you understand the list (this one http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/), but you are mistaken. You probably read an article about the "social credit system" that got the details wrong.

Getting put on the list is a punishment that can be ordered by a court for various infractions, but not buying video games, because (unlike the other three) it is merely frowned upon, but not illegal. Discouraging video games was part of one companies' private implementation of a "social credit system". The list is another "social credit system". Various local governments within China are also running their own pilots.

Those systems are not connected yet. It is expected that eventually the Chinese government will decide on one implementation by selecting parts of the pilot projects, but it isn't clear which parts. Until that happens, buying too many video games isn't going to ban you from taking high-speed rail.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#22

Post by pxue »

function_seven wrote: post #14
pxue wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is govern…

I'm not sure what to make of your scare quotes, but none of what you wrote, on its face, sounds wrong to me. 1. If a lender lends me money, they're shouldering the risk that I may not repay the loan. That risk should be priced appropriately. 2. Bankruptcy is a valid concept. 3. What Wall Street did was misjudge the risk of their products (whether intentionally or not). Sounds like what the lenders in your example are…

All your points are valid. However you're only looking at it in a way that's familiar to you.

Here's a personal example, my parents bought a condo in China in a new development area, searched around for renovators and found this shop close by that seemed fairly legit. A show room, full staff, decent looking portfolio, sales people looked legit and they had legit looking supply chain relationship as well.

My parents worked out a project scope and plan, estimated the cost, put down 25% for down payment. The shop came in, did a month of work and then disappeared. Job was half done. what happened? They went "bankrupt".

Are the shop owners risk takers? Maybe. Did they really try to start a business? Honestly they probably saw an opportunity where a new development area was coming up and came in for the quick buck. Borrowed some money, set up shop to a decent level and then disappear.

This isn't an isolated case, lots of examples exist. Am I saying this is the case for everyone? No. But its gotten bad enough that the government had to do something about it. Is it my parents fault for not doing more due diligence? Probably. But it's really really tiresome if you had to do this every. single. time. for everything.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#23

Post by refurb »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #17
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, actually! Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/what-do-p... Presumably a system that promotes good behavior is well liked by people who haven't run afoul of it. And of course, via censorship practices, a very small percentage of Chinese citizens are aware of a lot of reasons they should be concerned about their government. Russian citizens are also wildly enthusiastic about Vladimir Put…

> It's not a safe assumption that people living in countries with authoritarian leaders disapprove of them. Also see Hitler's popular approval ratings [0] (Godwin's law notwithstanding). In August 1934, roughly 90% of German voters were in favor of the consolidation of the offices of President and Chancellor into a single Leader-Chancellor in the person of Adolf Hitler. Note that number should be taken with a big gra…

What an absolutely fascinating article to read.

In all Bavaria Chancellor Hitler received the largest vote in his favor in the concentration camp at Dachau where 1,554 persons voted "Yes" and only eight "No" and there were only ten spoiled ballots.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#24

Post by merpnderp »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3
ada1981 wrote: post #2

This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

That's exactly the same argument people made about apartheid South Africa. And yet nearly everyone would say sanctions and boycotts were appropriate and effective.

China has millions of minorities in detention centers with some highly questionable things happening to those people. If you believe in justice and human rights, it is everyone's business what happens there.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#25

Post by wpdev_63 »

mindslight wrote: post #12
wpdev_63 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is competing with China not just economically but socially as well. If China succeeds in creating a more 'productive' and 'complacent' population with its policies, expect the US government to do the same. Remember the US still has the largest surveillance apparatus in the world. All they would need to do to implement a social credit system is to flip a couple of switches.

Those "switches" don't even need to be flipped by the US Government writ large. Boardroom meetings by "private" companies deciding to integrate ever more of the commercial surveillance infrastructure will suffice.

Are you talking about the B.E.N.S.[0] program? Then yes, companies can currently target individuals very easily/illegally using the fusion centers.

It's widely known that american companies have this capability but don't really know the details...

[0]:https://www.bens.org/

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#26

Post by CodingSucks »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3
ada1981 wrote: post #2

This system seems inhumane. I’ll consider supporting a boycott of China if it would help.

In what way would you boycott China? Refuse to buy or use products made there? How likely do you think this could scale to an impact that would meaningfully impact China's trade? And as horrible as I think the social credit system is, there's an interesting question, as people who don't live in China, what business it is of ours (except, perhaps, as a cautionary tale)?

We've finally found the one problem HackerNews willingly admits it can't innovate around: boycotting China.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#28

Post by mindslight »

wpdev_63 wrote: post #25
mindslight wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "switches" don't even need to be flipped by the US Government writ large. Boardroom meetings by "private" companies deciding to integrate ever more of the commercial surveillance infrastructure will suffice.

Are you talking about the B.E.N.S.[0] program? Then yes, companies can currently target individuals very easily/illegally using the fusion centers. It's widely known that american companies have this capability but don't really know the details... [0]: https://www.bens.org/

No, I wasn't talking about anything specific. Just the general setup of having a large part of US surveillance performed by commercial entities, combined with the ability of public companies administering critical services to refuse doing business with arbitrary individuals.

For example: see the "unbanked". Rather than fixing the banking system so that basic transactions do not rely on credit, it's easier to create a whole class of people that the industry tells to get lost.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#29

Post by yorwba »

function_seven wrote: post #14
pxue wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think you understand the premises of how one ends up on the bad list. "owing" money means you borrow from secondary lender, using it to buy risky assets. you essentially played with fire and got burned. lots of cases like this where these "businessmen" loses money and then declared bankruptcy, refusing to pay anyone back. sounds a lot like wallstreet doesn't it? are you okay with what they did? this is govern…

I'm not sure what to make of your scare quotes, but none of what you wrote, on its face, sounds wrong to me. 1. If a lender lends me money, they're shouldering the risk that I may not repay the loan. That risk should be priced appropriately. 2. Bankruptcy is a valid concept. 3. What Wall Street did was misjudge the risk of their products (whether intentionally or not). Sounds like what the lenders in your example are…

China does have bankruptcy laws, but in this case "One creditor said the company was a sham from the beginning, with fabricated expenditure and cooked books." The debtor running with the money is not something you can simply price into the loan risk, which is why financial fraud is usually illegal. Maybe the creditor was lying to avoid the debt being discharged in bankruptcy, maybe he even bribed the judge to get that verdict, but that's not a problem of the blacklist but of the rest of China's judicial system. The inconvenience of being blacklisted is specifically intended to make people pay back money they falsely claim not to have (which is why it targets expensive "luxury" goods).

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#30

Post by ChuckMcM »

It is an interesting experiment but if it is really a tool for social change then the ability to correct one's score can't really rely entirely on things where the individual has no control.

In the US getting a felony on your record is perhaps the biggest limiter to your future success that you can do. There are so many things stacked against you at that point. In California there is at least a process for getting some felonies expunged, which allows you to get back on to the playing field of life without that weight dragging you down.

The article seems to make the case that the only way the victim could get their status restored was to come up with money somehow to repay debts.

Post reply on HN