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Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

jatins.gitlab.io

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Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#31

Post by payne92 »

The blog post desperately needs "...for some people" appended.

We are all solving for different things.

Some want a shot at changing the world, some want to get rich, some want a job that (mostly) "doesn't come home with them", and many want to trade off between stress+anxiety and income+convenience. Others want to be always learning. Some have families and non-work commitments, others don't.

For example:

>>In my experience, it’s harder to have any visible growth in a

>>startup because well first, what do you grow to? There is no

>>clear hierarchy, no promotion paths.

In startups, there's often a better chance to learn general skills outside of (say) just development (dealing with users, writing content, devops, QA, teamwork, etc.) for those that have initiative.

Larger companies can be more structured but may have a chance for a more defined impact, with an existing customer base and market.

Which makes more/less sense? Depends entirely on what YOU care about.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#32

Post by smallgovt »

Looking at any individual employee's outcome from a startup's exit is wildly unproductive because there is so much variance in startup outcomes.

What you really want to know, as an employee, is what the expected value of your shares/options are. As a general rule of thumb, I'd recommend taking the valuation of the company's last financing round and halve it. Then, multiple this valuation by your projected ownership percentage after vesting (and subtract any impact from exercise price).

The biggest reasons you want to discount the company's last private valuation are liquid preference and risk intolerance.

Then, treat it as a high variance investment, which it is. I.e. don't count on the money.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#33

Post by ctulek »

Example dialogs in this article are without context. However, the responses that engineer got from founders or other teammates do not sound terrible to me in most contexts.

Most of the time, you shouldn't spend time on new shiny tech, like a new programming language. And you should really try hard to not urge adding more stuff to your stack, like a job queue server.

>> Founder's goals and your goals, as an engineer, will not be aligned most of the times.

This happens a lot and to be honest, I believe most engineers don't get it. Your goals should be aligned with the founders. If this is not the case, you shouldn't be in that startup. You don't do any good to yourself or to your team. Find another job.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#34

Post by toomuchtodo »

strken wrote: post #13
kartan wrote: post #3

> Get rich quick in case of success. This is just betting. The probability of success is extremely low. Would be as wise as betting part of your salary each week in the lottery.

It's not quite the same. It might be closer to investing part of your salary in the same penny stock each week.

I’m confident one could do better with short duration out of the money options on SPX while working a comfy BigCo job than anyone here could with their ISO options. And you’re not wasting years of your life grinding to do it.

No startups unless you’re the founder and you can iterate as a side project while collecting a check from someone else.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#35

Post by simmers »

WhyKill wrote: post #9

tl;dr working for assholes gets you treated poorly. BigCo will always treat you more consistently, but they won't necessarily treat you better or worse than a small or new company. This headline could have been one of those questions where the answer is no.

Every(3) startup from my experience said that they're working on providing a 401k, but never delivered. It would be hard to find a BigCo that didn't provide a 401k for engineers (or pension). On that fact alone, I'd say BigCo has treated me better.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#36

Post by scarmig »

smallgovt wrote: post #32

Looking at any individual employee's outcome from a startup's exit is wildly unproductive because there is so much variance in startup outcomes. What you really want to know, as an employee, is what the expected value of your shares/options are. As a general rule of thumb, I'd recommend taking the valuation of the company's last financing round and halve it. Then, multiple this valuation by your projected ownership p…

High variance investments are typically supposed to be a minority of your portfolio. Startups force you into investing an outsized amount into them.

That's not even touching on how the actual value and variance is unknown, and how startups prey on what amount to unsophisticated investors (the workers taking equity).

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#37

Post by peteradio »

seem_2211 wrote: post #24
CryoLogic wrote: post #4

The comp packages at big tech companies are becoming insane. In Seattle it's not unreasonable for a senior software engineer with some good connections to be making 200-250k. With that comes life insurance, health insurance for your whole family, disability insurance, etc. That's more in cash AND benefits than a doctor.

I think the question needs to be asked: will this last for the next 25-30 years? I really hope so, but unlike being a doctor, it's a lot more uncertain than we'd like it to be.

Git while the gittins good.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#38

Post by jerf »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #26
aggronn wrote: post #14

This is knitpicky, because OP's point may still stand, but as a founder, this is what comes to mind after reading this: When I hear "work for a startup", I don't assume that means "be the 10th engineer at a company". You might make some money at that point, but you're not going to get financial independence unless there's a billion dollar IPO. By BigCo standards, 10 engineers is a tiny startup. By venture/founder sta…

Okay, and as someone who has hitherto largely worked at startups (2/3rd of my career), let me tell you the counterpoint. There is not a lot of risk from your perspective, but there is a large amount of risk for us . At a startup, you push all you can towards steering the ship in the right technical direction. For example, unlike at a BigCo, you are likely to be that person who will write the technical debt that later…

"You may have to "work" hard, but your life is on autopilot."

Mmm... I get what you're saying, and I don't think you're necessarily advising auto-pilot, but I want to put a word out against career autopilot, even in BigCo.

You want to put some thought into your career. I've always got my metaphorical finger in the wind to figure out whether or not I'm working in a part of the company that is rising or falling and taking appropriate steps. Sometimes it's figuring out how to make something falling become something rising by improving alignment, sometimes it's working toward shifting assignments, sometimes it's by shifting companies. Depends on a crap ton of things. Honestly it's just been maybe three or four explicitly-made choices I've made over the past 10-15 years, but it's made a lot of difference with where I am now vs. where I'd be if I just went on autopilot too much. (I know some similar people who did just kinda go on autopilot, and can compare with their results.)

My meta-advice is just to look around and think about where you are and where you are going, though. Even when a company genuinely cares and works with you to develop your career, there's still an irreducible element that is your responsibility.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#39

Post by tabtab »

Working for a startup is a rare opportunity that can be exhilarating and educational from a business and personal perspective. However, be aware you are taking a gamble with your career and time. If you have a family to support, taking that gamble can be a sticky decision. Discuss it with family first.

Working overseas is kind of the same thing: it diversifies your outlook on life and people. But, does carry more career and family-time risk.

If you are single and unattached, go for it!

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense, unless you are into the mission

#40

Post by throwaway93289 »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #26
aggronn wrote: post #14

This is knitpicky, because OP's point may still stand, but as a founder, this is what comes to mind after reading this: When I hear "work for a startup", I don't assume that means "be the 10th engineer at a company". You might make some money at that point, but you're not going to get financial independence unless there's a billion dollar IPO. By BigCo standards, 10 engineers is a tiny startup. By venture/founder sta…

Okay, and as someone who has hitherto largely worked at startups (2/3rd of my career), let me tell you the counterpoint. There is not a lot of risk from your perspective, but there is a large amount of risk for us . At a startup, you push all you can towards steering the ship in the right technical direction. For example, unlike at a BigCo, you are likely to be that person who will write the technical debt that later…

> But you only get the pay-out if you actually manage to last until the exit. If you leave before then, because of politics or some failed product push or what-have-you, then you will have to exercise your options, which puts you in a bind in terms of financial risk.

Employee #1 of a startup that sold for 9 figures chiming in. I loved the people I worked with (until we got to around 70+ and bureaucracy/meetings grew), the company had an amazing life/work balance (it was one of their core principles and it was real), I learned a bunch of things (a lot of dead knowledge now though), and it seemed like my best shot for $$ because I knew the product was good. It took a decade to sell. Around year 7 the company started changing and I grew to like working there less, but the possibility of the payout was still my best bet for a pile of cash. It was then that I really felt the golden handcuffs and grew anxious. I couldn't leave and keep my options because of the exercise tax. We finally sold and the amount I got was so embarrassing that they offered me a second pot of cash that was more reasonable, but still a far cry from what the founders got.

I probably could have made the amount over 10 years working for one of the bigs. I will never put on golden handcuffs again.

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