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European Parliament approves copyright reform

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Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#131

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

yulaow wrote: post #110
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

Well it depends on which is your view about "what is the most democratic vote system". For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. From my point of view the Brexit vote is totally not-democratic because it put an absurdly complex decision on a big part of the population which has not even remotely th…

> For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about.

Isn't that not just a technocracy? I actually think a system like that would make a lot of sense, but I still believe the population should have the power to veto a law that they don't want.

As for the brexit vote being undemocratic, I see your point, but I don't think just because the people were uninformed that means the referendum was undemocratic. First of all, I don't think most MEPs who voted for the copyright reform were any more informed, on average. I also think it should ultimately be up to the population of a democratic system to decide things, even if they don't understand the situation entirely. That's the point of democracy.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#132

Post by tasuki »

calcifer wrote: post #46
toasterlovin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so when you disagree, people voted for lies? But when you agree then it’s the will of the people?

The lies told by the leave campaign has been extensively documented, including by courts. It's all a google search away.

Yes, and it's completely beside the point. The point being that this was how the people voted. Democracy right there.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#133

Post by yulaow »

piokoch wrote: post #39

I am curious how this will affect Brexit. At some point it looked like public opinion in UK leaned against it. Right now it seems that EU is ready to pass any law which is pushed by a powerful lobby, even if this law is not the most well-thought idea like Article 11 and 13. This does not make EU better place to be in. In fact if Germany and France agree on something, this going to happen. I don't think that UK will a…

If I remember correctly UK was actually a strong proposer for this kind of legislation

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#134

Post by isostatic »

paule89 wrote: post #77
zirror wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The information is not yet published, however Julia Reda ( https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1110514210176462850 ) is working on it. Also, I would suggest voting on a party-bases i.e. voting for Pirates in your region.

The question even is if i can vote for the pirates in my region. So far i haven't even seen the slightest bit of voting information for the upcoming vote. Well nearly no information. I had a flyer for the SPD Senior Citizen Group in my mailbox...

Last time there was a UK election I had 2 flyers. Nobody came knocking.

Fortunatly in this day and age you can do your own research

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#135

Post by romanovcode »

cotelletta wrote: post #13

Clueless twats. I will look up all who voted for this farce and let them know individually it will haunt them for the rest of their political career. No forgiveness for kneecapping free expression in return for some lobbyist euros and pretending it protects artists. And to the artists who were dumb enough to believe it: if your art wasn't mediocre you wouldn't have any trouble drawing the attention of the copyright i…

Do you know a website where there are people listed who voted for what in this case?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#136

Post by nairboon »

geff82 wrote: post #112
mweibel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note that there might be similar things happening in Switzerland, too: https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.ch/2019/03/23/demonstratio... (german only, sorry) It's all a bit different than in the EU because people may be able to vote against that at some point.. Whether that happens is another question entirely, though.

I totally did not see this. Thank you for the warning. As I am not totally into politics, I thought that the stupidity of the EU would not be repeated by Switzerland. Honestly, if they do this, I can stay where I am and take some time to investigate the situation in the US or Canada again. Of course, only it Switzerland, there can be referendums, while in the EU we totally do not have them.

Don't worry, if such a law would pass here in Switzerland, we'll just make a referendum to get rid of it. I'll start it myself if I have to.

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#137

Post by billpg »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104
isostatic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU Parliament, who we vote for every 5 years (and have elections coming up), vote for a law. You don't like said law, therefore it's undemocratic? The way the parliament is elected is quite fair - it gives a little more power to people in smaller countries, but that's not unusual (UK westminster constituencies vary from 22k to 120k. U.S. congress areas are more even, ranging from 500k to 1 million). There's an ar…

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

> nobody can really claim that it wasn't a democratic decision.

#include "vote-leave-broke-the-law.txt"

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#138

Post by paganel »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #16

Am I the only one who kinda feels like I'm not living in a democratic system anymore? Not saying this is the first such thing that happens, but it's probably the one that will make me stop using the word to refer to the society I live in.

I've also said it in the other thread about this, Macron is basically a crook, he has just sent the military to guard against some of France's citizens street protests [1], that's not at all democratic. Unfortunately, with the Brexit situation, with Angela Merkel who's on her way out and with Italy which is partly run by a comedian's party France has gained an unrivaled influence over EU affairs and in one way or another we (meaning us, EU citizens) are all under Macron's rule right now.

Btw, this initiative is heavily supported by Macron, from here[2]:

> France’s current batch of national politicians have consistently advocated for the worst parts of the Directive, and the Macron administration may seek to grab an early win for the country’s media establishment.

[1] http://en.rfi.fr/france/20190320-military-be-deployed-saturd...

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/03/eus-parliament-signs-d...

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#139

Post by bad_user »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #104
isostatic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU Parliament, who we vote for every 5 years (and have elections coming up), vote for a law. You don't like said law, therefore it's undemocratic? The way the parliament is elected is quite fair - it gives a little more power to people in smaller countries, but that's not unusual (UK westminster constituencies vary from 22k to 120k. U.S. congress areas are more even, ranging from 500k to 1 million). There's an ar…

To make my point a bit clearer: I am almost convinced now that "representative democracy" shouldn't count as a "democracy" just because the population can vote who they get ####ed by. It only works as long as the representatives see it as their duty to represent the will of the voters accurately, which I'm starting to believe is an antithesis to human behavior, and thus will never be the norm. I'm not saying that Eur…

Sorry, but the Brexit referendum is the perfect example of choices that should not be made directly by the population, because it lacks the competence to foresee the effects or even to distinguish fact from fiction.

If you told UK citizens that the choice is in fact for a No Deal Brexit and what that will mean, they wouldn't have voted for Brexit. However the population was lied to about the economic benefits and voted against their own interests.

So when the population can be lied to on such a scale, what do you find as being more democratic exactly?

And more importantly, after it was clear that Britain will not get a good deal, why wasn't the referendum repeated?

Re: European Parliament approves copyright reform

#140

Post by Jommi »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #131
yulaow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it depends on which is your view about "what is the most democratic vote system". For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. From my point of view the Brexit vote is totally not-democratic because it put an absurdly complex decision on a big part of the population which has not even remotely th…

> For example I am for a "democracy of experts" system, in which any decision must be voted exclusively by those who have expertise on the matter the vote is about. Isn't that not just a technocracy? I actually think a system like that would make a lot of sense, but I still believe the population should have the power to veto a law that they don't want. As for the brexit vote being undemocratic, I see your point, but…

So you think the MEPs made a bad decision because they were mis- or uninformed, but then you would trust that the population on average would be more informed?
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