Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 266 posts

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#121

Post by drusenko »

nir wrote: post #120

As someone who grew in the Mideast and spent some time in the US/EU/Aus, I was often amazed how completely detached Westerners are from the way the rest of the world works. Left wingers or conservatives, so many guns & money have been sheltering the past 2-3 generations from reality that they genuinely believe most people share their values and goals, and that the world operates similarly to their own surroundings. I…

"how completely disconnected Westerners are from the way the world actually works"

Would you like to explain that, or are you just going to throw a nebulous assertion out there and expect it to mean something?

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#122

Post by rtra »

d2viant wrote: post #115
berntb wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, you're paranoid. The Russians would probably just have a chat over some tea... :-)

I'm sure they would love to have tea with him in that situation. The last guy to have tea with the Russians ended up poisoned with polonium-210: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinen...

His books should be worth reading...

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#123

Post by bl4k »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #84
bl4k wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the US and Britian have turned a blind eye to the opium trade and the associated corruption in Afghanistan in order to appease the local anti-Taliban population. I watched footage last week of British soldiers fighting to free large opium fields from Taliban control so that the real owners can get back to farming. All par for the course. The war on drugs takes a back seat to the war on terrorism

As it should. Terrorists are an affront to freedom. Drugs are not.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#124

Post by rtra »

patrickgzill wrote: post #118
d2viant wrote: post #81

What surprises me most is that Julian Assange has lasted this long. This isn't OBL, where he's living in a cave somewhere -- this guy is known to travel between first world countries. I can understand those countries may not be willing to hand him over, but the US has lots of experience with rendition and I'm surprised some three-letter agency hasn't snatched him up yet.

For all you know he is controlled opposition. There is little reason to believe that the contents of these cables aren't already known to other governments, given that many soldiers from the rank of private on up had access to them; and that the UK, France, Israel, Germany, etc. also do extensive signals intelligence, crypto, and even good old fashioned human based spying.

And the realization of this really undermines the assumption that these leaks threaten the US national security. These could have been leaked privately to an enemy just as easily - how worse would that be?

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#125

Post by sfphotoarts »

drusenko wrote: post #121
nir wrote: post #120

As someone who grew in the Mideast and spent some time in the US/EU/Aus, I was often amazed how completely detached Westerners are from the way the rest of the world works. Left wingers or conservatives, so many guns & money have been sheltering the past 2-3 generations from reality that they genuinely believe most people share their values and goals, and that the world operates similarly to their own surroundings. I…

"how completely disconnected Westerners are from the way the world actually works" Would you like to explain that, or are you just going to throw a nebulous assertion out there and expect it to mean something?

If you read the rest of his comment, you will see his explanation for the opening (and inflammatory) sentence.

A basic grounding in recent world history would also likely be useful. The point, if I may be allowed to interpret his intention, was to point out that having spent a couple hundred years marauding around the world toppling governments that didn't suit its ideology the USA has lost sight of other cultures, their values and just assumes their way is the way. Democracy, capitalism etc are not the only political and economic models that have any value. In fact, an argument could be made against both of these, but currently it seems that they work well enough - especially when you back them with sufficient number of nuclear warheads.

I am not making any kind of political point, I live here in the US and love it, but having traveled the world, I have seen first hand that there is actually a disconnect between how this country, in aggregate, thinks and how much of it actually works.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#126

Post by krschultz »

Alex3917 wrote: post #110
sudonim wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea that the wikileaks and don't ask, don't tell stuff were connected. How deep does the rabbit-hole go? Im glad they're not focusing on Manning's sexuality in the coverage, but it seems to me that the policies about sexuality in the military have some bearing on Manning's motivations for wikileaking. Interesting!

The basic problem is that Obama is a cheerleader in support of bigotry and discrimination against minorities. And when the vast majority of Americans are a member of some discriminated-against class, it shouldn't really be that big of a surprise when Americans start attacking America. Until we have equal rights for LGBT, drug users, the chronically ill, the mentally ill, children, students, fetishists, men, women, re…

"Until we have equal rights for {x} then America will never be safe."

I'm quite certain you can't argue that "the terrorists" would stop attacking us if only we had equal rights for LGBT in this country.

And the fact that 1 guy may or may not have have leaked the documents because he may or may not have felt discriminated against isn't much of a reason to argue FOR equal rights.

I'd prefer to argue FOR equal rights on the basis of the that being the morally right position, rather than do what you did and threaten those that are against equal rights with consequences. THat is just fear mongering.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#127

Post by aristus »

drusenko wrote: post #121
nir wrote: post #120

As someone who grew in the Mideast and spent some time in the US/EU/Aus, I was often amazed how completely detached Westerners are from the way the rest of the world works. Left wingers or conservatives, so many guns & money have been sheltering the past 2-3 generations from reality that they genuinely believe most people share their values and goals, and that the world operates similarly to their own surroundings. I…

"how completely disconnected Westerners are from the way the world actually works" Would you like to explain that, or are you just going to throw a nebulous assertion out there and expect it to mean something?

I would guess that the OP means realpolitik. Where there is power, there is corruption. Smuggling currency is a very (very) common hobby. Horse-trading (influence for money, trade deals for extradition, taking in inconvenient "no longer enemy combatants" in exchange for influence or money), etc, is a daily thing. To survive and thrive you need to think about practical considerations more than ideals or principles.

Take this point about Pakistan's nuclear fuel. First, it's a bit odd that we countenance a nuclear program in Pakistan, a muslim country that has been involved in several border wars, but a nuclear program in Iran or Iraq is grounds for invasion. The reasons for that, what looks like gross hypocrisy, are many.

The Pakistani diplomat wasn't objecting to the removal of the fuel per se, but how it will play in the local media and politics. That may or may not be bullshit, and perhaps beside the point. Or maybe its not. No one, not even the diplomats know everything. There are always plans within plans and forces at cross-purposes and idiots who value expedience over long-term planning.

Western folk tend not to have internalized this point of view. Taken too far it leads to paranoia, but I wouldn't mind a slightly larger dose of "reality" in the thinking of the average US voter.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#128

Post by krschultz »

ismarc wrote: post #63
steve19 wrote: post #54

It is bizarre that a PFC had access to so much intelligence.

It's all secret or noforn. If he was working as an analyst, he'd likely be badged for it. It also depends on his particular job responsibilities. My guess is that he was cleared to access a document archive for his day-to-day operations and started grabbing random stuff when he figured out a way to transport the data. There's no rhyme or reason to what was leaked, it's looks like wholesale whatever could be retrieved…

Which really begs the question why they don't have some automatic monitoring on who starts accessing a hundred thousand documents not related to their day to day job.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#129

Post by raquo »

gnosis wrote: post #93
hugh3 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this actually proves an important point about the various three-letter agencies: they're not really the nefarious organizations that exist in the imaginations of people who have seen too many movies. Jason Bourne's CIA would has assassinated Julian Assange a long time ago. The real one just grumbles.

What good would assassinating him do? He's not the only one who runs Wikileaks or has access to the information. They'd need to "snatch" everyone who has access to it, which might be a very difficult proposition, not to mention a complete public relations disaster, considering Wikileaks is in the public spotlight right now. I very much doubt the CIA is holding back out of the goodness of their hearts. No. What we are…

If you are known to reliably kill/torture/imprison/enslave people for X, MUCH fewer people will be doing X. Works in Russia at least.

Re: WikiLeaks Archive — Cables Uncloak U.S. Diplomacy

#130

Post by secret »

patrickgzill wrote: post #118
d2viant wrote: post #81

What surprises me most is that Julian Assange has lasted this long. This isn't OBL, where he's living in a cave somewhere -- this guy is known to travel between first world countries. I can understand those countries may not be willing to hand him over, but the US has lots of experience with rendition and I'm surprised some three-letter agency hasn't snatched him up yet.

For all you know he is controlled opposition. There is little reason to believe that the contents of these cables aren't already known to other governments, given that many soldiers from the rank of private on up had access to them; and that the UK, France, Israel, Germany, etc. also do extensive signals intelligence, crypto, and even good old fashioned human based spying.

While I don't think it's the case, I do think it would be a brilliant strategy. The NYT article on the Iran negotiations seems rather helpful to the US, but nothing that could ever be said officially (especially the positions of other nations).
Post reply on HN