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Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

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Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse. For most people, news is just a social object. Something to talk about with family, co-workers, etc. Whether or not any particular story is true doesn't matter - what matters is that everyone in their circle is aware of the described event (whether they read the same story, or a different one). Humans are pretty good at fact-checking and critical thinking when getting it wrong means some immediate lo…

That's what I find so disgusting about this tendency of many people. If I don't care enough about an issue to be rigorous about it, then by definition I don't care enough about it to 1) vote based off of it or 2) spread my uninformed opinion about it (when I do talk about it, I'm clear that I have only a tentative, uninformed model of the situation). People have often defended the average voter with "people have busy…

IMHO what it comes down to is that "Democracy" has become our national religion. Not in the general sense of rule by the people, but the specific implementation wherein everybody picks and votes their yes/no option. Poor results can never be attributed to the abstract ideal itself, but rather can only be due to a lack of adherence to the process. So it is paramount that everybody adopts an opinion, no matter how ill-informed.

Refraining to take part in that (or even worse being a spoil sport) is met with the same disdain as naysaying at any celebration. It's the difference between someone saying they root for a different team or saying they don't care much for baseball - the latter is going to sour the conversation pretty quick. At least with sports it's clear that the outcome is essentially frivolous.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#182
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. RT is based on people's opinions, but news should be fact checked. Except when RT doesn't like to hear people's opinion when it differs from the mainstream. Unfortunately it's easy to box it as "trolling" and hide it under the rug.

If you want to go on a rant, is it too much to ask that you list examples and how they apply, rather than assume everyone here is as on top of Internet drama like you might be? Your examples might even make it clear why a RT for news would be even more difficult than the one that exists for movies.

That's a good question. I'm not sure what the other poster had in mind, and I suspect it's not the same, but RT has a bunch of rating problems that would probably become far more egregious for news than they are for movies. (Leaving aside the tricky question of how to translate the formats: is a movie like a news story, or a news source? Does news really have an existing aggregation-worthy source like movie reviews?) RT provides percentage scores for both audience and critic reviews. Those percentages are not averaged scores, but percentage of positive reviews. There's good reason for this in both cases, but it causes a lot of weird side effects.

- For audience reviews, reviewers rate out of 5 stars, and the score is the percentage of reviews at least 3.5 stars.

The goal is to insulate scores from extreme opinions and odd voting patterns. On IMDB, which doesn't do this, a few low scores can destroy a movie's rating, and movies that invite careful analysis are effectively penalized. The Dark Knight ends up rated higher than Schindler's List, but the latter has lots of slightly-imperfect scores with incredibly positive review text.

The basic side effect is the loss of all meaningful score data. That punishes daring movies: 100 4-star reviews equals 100% while 50 3-star and 50 5-star reviews equals 50%, but I would much rather see the second movie. It also hides deep flaws: The Boondock Saints outscores 2001, but a look at the reviews shows that its "rotten" ratings are often 1 and 2-star reviews calling it garbage, while 2001 is full of 3-star reviews like "slow and confusing, but fascinating". Another problem here is that naive binary scores suffer from reviewer skew and vote-bombing campaigns. It's less bad than IMDB because extreme scores are 'softened', but still worse than systems which relate individual scores to the reviewer's other opinions. BeerAdvocate, of all things, takes on this problem with interesting meta-info like "reviewer's average distance from consensus".

- For critical reviews, each review is reduced to a binary opinion and the score is a weighted average of positive review count.

The goal there is to condense varied or absent rating schemes into an aggregation-friendly score and avoid reviewer skew. Metacritic, which doesn't do this, ends up systematically distorted by which outlets review things. Unscored reviews like Ars Technica's (on video games) are skipped, while sites with extremely skewed scores are included by some unspecified weighting system. As a result, Metacritic lists game reviews averaging 75-89 as "generally favorable", but there's a widespread understanding that any major-release product below 85 is terrible. (GameSpot once infamously fired a reviewer for scoring a game 6/10.) It's largely the same problem as Uber and Amazon ratings: does a perfect score mean "exceptional" or "nothing wrong"? RT tries to dodge the problem by saying "good" or "bad", with a weighting to accommodate a reviewer's 'signal strength'.

The side effect here is, again, the total loss of secondary data. RT sometimes gets reviews actively wrong; something like "despite lovely action sequences, this movie is a meandering waste of time" will get parsed as "lovely action sequences". That's probably an automation error, but lots of other reviews can't be clearly declared positive or negative even by humans. And within a categorization, there's a great deal more lost data. Ebert produces 'fresh' for The Avengers because "It provides its fans with exactly what they desire," but he produces 'fresh' for There Will Be Blood by declaring it "A force beyond categories."

- The reason all of this works alright for Rotten Tomatoes is that it's fundamentally answering one question: "will I enjoy watching this?" The Avengers isn't on par with There Will Be Blood, but if you like the description and it's rated fresh, you'll enjoy either one. If you see that critics hate The Boondock Saints and audiences don't, well, you probably know whether you're somebody who likes that kind of cult classic.

But what of news? People already shred Snopes whenever it tries to deal with assessments like "factually correct but misleading" or "incorrect statistic but the real number also supports the same thesis". The entire point of news reviews is to not rely on "will I enjoy this story?", so all the things RT quietly glosses over will become critical problems.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do their detractors distinguish the two?" There is a significant amount of respect for Shep Smith and Chris Wallace in predominantly liberal news discussions (like r/politics subreddit) for being willing to criticize Trump and Republicans.

Was there similar respect for these two men before 2015, when they were presumably being no less sincere but circumstances were such that the targets of their ire were not targets shared by predominantly liberal news discussion forums? That might sound like a rhetorical question, but it's not. I don't know the answer.

"Was there similar respect for these two men before 2015"

Yes, I think so. Random article about Shep Smith I found with a quick Google:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/05/shep-sm...

Chris Wallace:

https://www.businessinsider.com/chris-wallace-barack-obama-d...

So I think they have had the reputation for being willing to sometimes buck the Republican Party line for a while now.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#184
In my opinion, this doesn't really offer any value as the only way to get a good understanding of the news is to read from lots of different places and come to a view. Using this strategy then consuming a truly "random" site is better than consuming pre reviewed site as there is no bias in selection or outcome.

It's not like films, where each one is independent (except marvel and dc comics obviously :)

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#185
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s extremely obvious that “top” means “popular and/or most advertised.” In RTs case, "Top" means films no one dislikes it and everybody thought it was at the very least OK. The "problem" with genuinely great films is that they can often be divisive and challenging and generate a lot of strong opinions in both directions, and thus they'll never rate as well on RT.

Looking at the RT top 100 list, 76 films are from 2010 or later, 6 from 2000-2009, and 18 from earlier. Were films a lot more divisive before 2010?

> Were films a lot more divisive before 2010?

Honestly? Yeah, I think so. I'm not saying RT's rankings necessarily reflects this, but I think modern movies in general are a lot less daring than what hollywood used to produce. Probably after 2008 or so, but near enough to 2010, it seems they stopped taking risks on movies and really started to search out the lowest common denominator to have the greatest shot at mass market appeal, even when that meant gutting the plot, degrading the sophistication of dialogue. SFX budgets have gone through the roof, movies are filled with explosions and vivid colors, but little that stimulates the mind. Even the exceptions that most would hold up as poignant movies are generally quite mundane, almost always appealing to the most popular public sentiments.

Consider Mad Max: Fury Road (2015) at number 7 on that list, and Mad Max (1979). 2015 has no shortage of explosions and vivid colors to keep anybody glued to their seat and eating popcorn; the movie watcher doesn't have to put forth any amount of effort to enjoy it, they could walk in half way through the movie, look at their smartphone 90% of the movie, and still enjoy the small slivers of the movie they did see because the movie was made to be as widely accessible as possible, even to philistines who don't pay attention to movies they pay to watch.

Mad Max (1979) on the other hand doesn't make it onto this Top 100 list. RT gives it 90% from critics and 70% from audiences, which hints at why. 1979 is not as easy for the casual modern tech-induced attention deficit disorder afflicted movie consumer to enjoy. It's very far from non-stop action; it asks the viewer to pay attention even when things aren't exploding on screen. It's excellent, but the industry won't make another Mad Max like that again in the foreseeable future. They don't take risks like that anymore; not when littering the movie with 500% more explosions is so cheap and is so effective at shoring up the profit potential of a movie.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are people who care. But the real problem, is the growing cynical world view that we cannot trust any authorities, and therefor have no way of assessing truth or reliability of anything we read or here. The first step is to educate people this is not inevitable. No, don't trust authorities, but trust your ability to research and verify and spot faulty or unsupported arguments and assertions. I'm pretty…

> I think it will be very difficult now for anyone to argue there was not a massive effort from the Russians to help elect Trump Statements like this are exactly why people are cynical of the mainstream news. There is no evidence of "massive" efforts from Russia to get Trump elected, yet you state it as a fact and that we should trust mainstream news. The tighter people cling to false narratives pushed by the media,…

"yet you state it as a fact and that we should trust mainstream news."

This is the opposite of what I said, I said we should trust the process Mueller used to reach his conclusions, NOT the media, who got a lot wrong.

Please refute the indictments Mueller issued for Russian nationals working to influence the outcome of the election, to back your claim Russia did not make an effort to influence the election.

Unless you are hung up on how massive counts as "massive", which is a pointless and stupid debate.

The media clearly got a lot wrong, but rejecting the Mueller report's conclusions is a much higher bar, and I will want to know how you have more information about the topic or more credibility than Mueller and his team and specifics about which parts of the indictments were incorrect.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#187
Maybe this project will help the general public start reading reality based media.

But we do have this already. Done by experts. It's called the Pulitzer.

The people in a democracy must have access to information. Once a public is persuaded to reject reality based media, democracy becomes irrelevant. Thus the campaign to denigrate it in the dozen nascent autocracies. Again, I hope this project helps reverse that.

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong. But for those of us who want facts and insight instead of entertainment and opinions it would be nice for it to be more obvious where to find that.

I find it pretty easy to find reputable news sources, I don't really need a tool but I guess it could help. It's everyone else I'm worried about. Solving this problem for only people who want the truth narrows the scope dramatically and may in fact make the situation worse, by attacking and discrediting legitimate news sources for a perceived bias.

Unfortunately what many people consider to be "reputable news" is just whatever source happens to agree with their perspective/opinion at the time

Re: Credder Wants to Create an Equivalent to “Rotten Tomatoes” for News

#190
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because films with more ratings are rated higher. Older films have far fewer ratings by critics, same with smaller films. Add on the fact that each critic's review is distilled to a positive/negative boolean value, and it's clear to see why RT's best films is really just a list of films they are confident you'll like.

There are still some oddities. "How to Train Your Dragon" (2010), 99% with 206 reviews does not make the list, but many older movies, with lower scores and lower number of reviews do. E.g., "The Wizard of Oz" (1939), 98% with 111 reviews, and "It Happened One Night" (1934), 98% with 56 reviews, and "Casablanca" (1942), 97% with 79 reviews, and "Alien" (1979), 97% with 115 reviews. It looks like the older a film is, t…

Above all else, RT needs their ranking to be perceived as legitimate. The general public knows there are a handful of old movies that should certainly be in any legitimate Top-100 list. Casablanca, Citizen Kane, The Wizard of Oz, etc. These are movies recognized by the general public as movies that are considered masterpieces. If those movies were not in the list, then the general public would not consider the list legitimate. I'm talking about people who've never seen any of those movies, but are aware of their reputations and will dismiss any Top-100 list that doesn't include those movies.

So the consequence of that is clear. If you are tasked with creating a Top-100 movie list, you better tune whatever algorithm you use to include those movies. You'll butcher your beautiful algorithm to ensure those handful of classic movies always rank high. You might go so far as to put those movies in a special list and inject them arbitrarily into your Top-100 list, circumventing the normal ranking algorithm, because having those particular movies in the Top-100 is a design requirement. It's more important that those movies be in the list than it is for your ranking algorithm be fair and unbiased.

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