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Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

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Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#121

Post by john2x »

malvosenior wrote: post #46
Townley wrote: post #43

I can, and do, appreciate opinions on languages themselves. But my decision to continue using Python over Clojure is much less about the language's syntax and more about the available libraries. How do Clojure web frameworks compare to Django/Flask? What would I use instead of Pandas for data analysis? Are there keras-like deep learning tools? Switching languages based on a comparison of idiosyncrasies between the tw…

Clojure works on the JVM so you have native access to all of the Java ecosystem. With that in mind I'd say the libraries are actually better for Clojure with the exception of data analysis. I don't think there's a language out there that has as many data libraries as Python (like Pandas).

I really don't understand this point about just using Java libraries in Clojure. Why not just use Java? Wouldn't the experience of writing Clojure that fits the Java library's model be horrible?

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#122

Post by nattmat »

iLemming wrote: post #118
Scarbutt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author switched to kotlin from clojure, kotlin's interop with java is leagues ahead of clojure.

Kotlin simply is an attempt to fix Scala problems, which in itself is an attempt to fix Java problems. Clojure by design - simply doesn't have those problems.

What Scala problems does Kotlin attempt to fix?

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#123

Post by fulafel »

bitwize wrote: post #85
Townley wrote: post #43

I can, and do, appreciate opinions on languages themselves. But my decision to continue using Python over Clojure is much less about the language's syntax and more about the available libraries. How do Clojure web frameworks compare to Django/Flask? What would I use instead of Pandas for data analysis? Are there keras-like deep learning tools? Switching languages based on a comparison of idiosyncrasies between the tw…

Clojure lets you leverage the entire Java library ecosystem, which is flippin' huge -- bigger, even, than Python's.

I'd say Clojure has just the right amount of syntactic friction to calling into java, that encourages people to write Clojurey libraries (or wrappers for Java libs) and keep the Javaisms at bay from your code.

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#124

Post by AdieuToLogic »

bitwize wrote: post #85
Townley wrote: post #43

I can, and do, appreciate opinions on languages themselves. But my decision to continue using Python over Clojure is much less about the language's syntax and more about the available libraries. How do Clojure web frameworks compare to Django/Flask? What would I use instead of Pandas for data analysis? Are there keras-like deep learning tools? Switching languages based on a comparison of idiosyncrasies between the tw…

Clojure lets you leverage the entire Java library ecosystem, which is flippin' huge -- bigger, even, than Python's.

Regarding what is available in the Java/JVM ecosystem, here are some Maven Central stats[0]:

  Total number of artifacts indexed (GAV): 3,566,566
  Total number of unique artifacts indexed (GA): 272,507
0 - https://search.maven.org/stats

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#125

Post by iLemming »

luckydata wrote: post #21

I don't have a horse in this race but I find it interesting that in my career I've seen a lot of bad code but the worst clusterfucks I've met where all in Clojure while the community seems to be chock full of purists and in general people that takes craftmanship seriously at least at face value. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess we would have to believe your empirical observations and ignore the facts:

- Clojure has been noted as the most payed language in dev surveys of the past few years

- Again, different surveys (e.g.: stackoverflow, state of javascript) shown that Clojurists overall are more experienced devs. This kinda makes sense - usually people try Clojure out of curiosity and not for dogmatic reasons and not for the points in the resume.

- Someone did a data analysis of github repos for bug density and Clojure was at the top. https://dev.to/danlebrero/the-broken-promise-of-static-typin...

However, I can say the similar thing: I have seen many clusterfucks in my career. And the worst of them I've seen in C#. Why C#? I don't know, probably because I was inexperienced, young and stupid, and anything (even slightly outside of norm) could've interpreted by me as a clusterfuck. I have no reasons to go back to C# and re-evaluate my opinions about it, I'm sure part of me will be forever biased about it.

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#126

Post by iLemming »

nattmat wrote: post #122
iLemming wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin simply is an attempt to fix Scala problems, which in itself is an attempt to fix Java problems. Clojure by design - simply doesn't have those problems.

What Scala problems does Kotlin attempt to fix?

Let's not go into the rabbit hole of "Scala has no problems"

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#127

Post by [deleted] »

thom wrote: post #30
snrji wrote: post #4

I have considered multiple times switching from Python to other alternatives. However, I instantly discard any language with a Lisp-like syntax. I just cannot work with it. Being a Haskell hobbyist, I would like Python to be statically type and have better support for pure functional programming, but Python has the libraries that I need.

I've programmed for 10 years in Clojure and have many regrets, but I've grown to just accept that Lisp syntax is correct. On day one you need to understand one thing. Years later, you need to understand one thing. And sure, in Clojure they happen to use three types of brackets for brevity but even that's optional. But other languages have dozens if not hundreds of little syntactical edge cases. I personally find that…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#128

Post by lostmyoldone »

iLemming wrote: post #117
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem with S-expressions is that they are intended for (1950s) machine readability and human ergonomics takes a back seat.

sure, because Sure, because this (taken from React's JSX example page): Scores ; is more readable than this: [dashboard-unit {:data-index 2} [:h1 "Scores"] [scoreboard {:class-name "results" :scores game-scores]] Please tell me more about Lisp readability.

I don't really see how JSX informs us about readability of s-expression vis-à-vis Python et al.

Disregarding that, and in my opinion, properly formatted JSX might be a bit worse then s-expr for shorter stretches of code, but if/when you have a longer stretch, the visual symmetry in JSX would seem to tip the scale the other way. If there is a point to JSX, I would claim it's mostly that it looks different than the surrounding code that is the point, as it potentially makes it easier to parse and to clearly separate roles between code and design.

While I'm frankly not a fan of either of the above-mentioned, I do find some of the arguments around the brilliance of s-expr to be perplexing. The most confusing argument is the one that s-expressions are good because everything looks the same, which to me sound like arguing that the best way to paint is to only use one color, which I vehemently disagree with.

I think the easiest explanation of this conundrum boils down to a rather simple fact. Visual regularity is as confusing to some, as the lack of it is to others. People are different, sometimes shockingly so.

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#129

Post by doteka »

iLemming wrote: post #117
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem with S-expressions is that they are intended for (1950s) machine readability and human ergonomics takes a back seat.

sure, because Sure, because this (taken from React's JSX example page): Scores ; is more readable than this: [dashboard-unit {:data-index 2} [:h1 "Scores"] [scoreboard {:class-name "results" :scores game-scores]] Please tell me more about Lisp readability.

For someone familiar with HTML/XML, so any developer in the last 30 years, yes it is. Your point being?

I like the ideas behind clojure, I really do. I even wrote a non-trivial personal project with it. However, coming back to that code after two months was basically like the plot of Memento. I ended up rewriting it in JavaScript instead.

Re: Why I Switched from Python to Clojure (2016)

#130

Post by nattmat »

iLemming wrote: post #126
nattmat wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Scala problems does Kotlin attempt to fix?

Let's not go into the rabbit hole of "Scala has no problems"

Not my intention. But yours was a bold claim, and I wanted to hear your thoughts.

I do not agree with you. Scala is a mostly functional language, and Kotlin is mostly imperative. How is that fixing Scala? They are two different languages, and Kotlin being newer, is inspired by, among others, Scala.

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