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Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

blog.datproject.org

31–39 of 39 posts

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#31
post #11
post #3

The issue with federated services is that they operate from the assumption that everyone has an anarchist sysadmin in their friend group who is going to help everyone run the federated infrastructure. I’ll use SSB as an example. If you install the software and make an identity, you’ll soon find that you have to sign up with something called a “pub server” to actually get any of your friend’s updates. Where do you fin…

In SSB, pubs seem like an essential (and flawed) part of the network, and this may be true at the present time, but not forever. I'm working on a few alternatives to pub servers, one of them is a server that has no storage of data, it just acts as a meeting point for clients, and sets up tunnels between them. The other is a 1-feed pub, where the idea is to setup a mirror for your data in case you are a feed that has…

Despite working with another protocol in the decentralized space, I have to say Andrew Staltz, who I assume is the person who made this comment based on the username, is doing such a great job with manyverse: https://www.manyver.se/ and I recommend downloading it to try it out. It is one of the first breakout apps (in my opinion) in the space that feels user friendly and really makes it seem like theres a viable decentralized alternative to facebook. The bluetooth/wifi option helps alot with making it user friendly when it comes to pub servers, etc.

I actually found out about manyverse last year when it was trending front page on hacker news and I'm glad I looked into it.

He is being humble by not bringing up is app here despite it being a beautiful one that feels seemless, and being extremely responsive to his users (you can even submit issues to gitlab via by clicking a button in app) but listening to his podcasts on solarpunk, and in general, he seems like a humble guy so I'm not surprised. I am very interested to see how the features manyverse plans to roll out help push the user friendly aspects needed is the SB protocol space.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#32
post #18

The biggest challenge I've seen with using decentralized systems today is with on-boarding the average user into them. As @woah mentions, the process isn't straightforward and even remotely close to signing for a facebook or ig account. I think there are a few problems that'll need to be solved before all this is actually usable. (There's definitely a parallel here with the AOL and CompuServes of the world vs the ope…

Blockstack is not based on scuttlebutt protocol, but when it comes to addressing id creation, user friendly onboarding probably needing a browser, etc

"someone will have to build a browser-equivalent"

we do have a browser that has a somewhat user friendly onboarding process: https://browser.blockstack.org/

If it is your first time, you will be asked to create an identity on Blockstack: https://docs.blockstack.org/core/naming/introduction.html

Each instance of the "browser" whether on desktop or phone, requires a unique password, associated with the id. The id is stored on the Blockchain, the data is stored in your own gaia hub which you can host wherever you like: https://docs.blockstack.org/storage/overview.html

"That's a problem best solved by modeling this as an app - and there needs to be a reason for the average user to use this"

The next browser release will have a landing page that features apps dynamically populated from https://app.co/ and will have a more user friendly onboarding process, one that explains in more detail that each instance of the browser (we have a desktop version, each login in a new browser, etc) requires its' own password.

I think my favorite app using our protocol is https://debutapp.social/ because it is the "facebook" or twitter like equivalent people can associate with to see there is a relevant use to this, and in general user end interaction with the platform can be seemless with integration of decentralised protocols when done correctly.

The founder/creator of this app is a self taught software developer who does this in his spare time outside of a full time job so if you have feedback make it constructive and feed it back to him on the help page.

Same as other protocols, we are working to make our nodes easily hostable. If you know docker at this point or how to launch a vm in digital ocean you are probably good, but we are working to automated images and one click deploys. You will see more rollouts with much less instructions and much more "one click deploy" based in the near future.

We are actually prioritising our gaia hubs being easily hosted with one click deploys by the average user over the nodes, because in our model gaia is where the user's data is stored, and the decentralized aspects of the protocol are related to identity, and authing that identity with a users data, that apps can read/write to, but the user ultimately has the ability to store that data where they want, revoke access to apps, whitelist apps, migrate the data, etc.

You can read more about blockstack, gaia (our user storage) and the rest of the platform here: https://docs.blockstack.org/

Given your very developed opinion on what the decentralised internet needs, and how it seems very aligned with what we are developing, would love to hear your feedback/initial impressions of our platform and app ecosystem.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#33

Easy user mobility should be a goal of decentralized protocols and platforms. That would help users leave one provider and join another if/when the need arises. If I join Server A today as User A, I should be able to carry my identity as User A to another server or provider in the future without losing the ability to still remain in touch with everyone I was in touch with or having to tell them that my address has ch…

This is one of the primary benefits of using Blockstack. The Blockstack naming system is used to associate an immutable user identity with the routing path to their storage, for reads and writes. The data is stored in your own gaia hub which you control which apps can write to, you can revoke access, delete your data, or take your data with you. We are working to make it more user friendly but you can read about it here: https://docs.blockstack.org/storage/overview.html

The identity is stored on the strongest blockchain and can be linked to your gaia hub.

"initial servers for a decentralized platform get more users over time and remain the largest, while later and/or smaller ones may not get attention, and could possibly even close down because of low usage" while we host our own nodes, in general the nodes in our network are selected based on a random walk graph and bias away from having a few nodes.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#34
post #26

The biggest problem with decentralized protocol (in practice) is still the speed. Centralized protocols are simply faster. I am hoping someone will discover a way to make decentralized protocols fast in the future. I am personally rooting for IPFS.

The speed is only an issue if you are storing all of your data in a decentralised network, but do you need to? What you want to persist is your identity, but you perhaps you don't need to replicate your data on other people's servers, for an indeterminate period of time. Furthermore, IPFS relies on DHT protocols which have shown to have scaliability issues.

At Blockstack, the name persists via the blockchain, which can be slow, but is only an initial barrier on identity creation. After that, you own your own data via gaia hub, which can be stored wherever you like, for example behind an LB with fast i/o on Digital Ocean. You just run docker-compose up on our master on an image of choice on digital ocean for example: https://docs.blockstack.org/storage/overview.html

We are looking to automate deployments for user friendly rollouts but I strongly recommend checking out gaia. Gaia is not dependent on the blockchain, and can still be persisted or duplicated via networks like IPFS is someone so chose to. We have an IPFS driver request in and are looking to get to it with some eng cycles.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#35
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Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#36
post #32
post #18

The biggest challenge I've seen with using decentralized systems today is with on-boarding the average user into them. As @woah mentions, the process isn't straightforward and even remotely close to signing for a facebook or ig account. I think there are a few problems that'll need to be solved before all this is actually usable. (There's definitely a parallel here with the AOL and CompuServes of the world vs the ope…

Blockstack is not based on scuttlebutt protocol, but when it comes to addressing id creation, user friendly onboarding probably needing a browser, etc "someone will have to build a browser-equivalent" we do have a browser that has a somewhat user friendly onboarding process: https://browser.blockstack.org/ If it is your first time, you will be asked to create an identity on Blockstack: https://docs.blockstack.org/cor…

Thanks for the pointers -- I'm pretty familiar with Blockstack and the Gaia ecosystem. I started playing around with it a couple of years ago, and registered [1] my ID in 2017 maybe? or 2018? I forget. Of course, it was much more bare bones then than now. But the owner address link doesn't work for me today [2].

Happy to give feedback directly on DebutApp, but my initial impressions of it when I tried were - it's a good proof of concept, but its a very early incarnation and so definitely rough on the edges on both product and engineering. It's commendable that this is a side project, since it shows promise.

One of my main questions with a lot of blockstack apps is exactly that - while they prove that something can be done, it's unclear to me how the next person who is going to google for "new blog" and try to pick one of squarespace, medium, or blogger - will use debutapp.

I'm curious about the host-able node comment. Who is this one click deploy targeted at? and what is the incentive for folks to do it today?

Also, any insights on why there's a general sense of lag on the ajax calls that these apps make?

[1] https://explorer.blockstack.org/name/viksit.id

[2] https://explorer.blockstack.org/address/1LMxzW9LbL6HZEo3qeLb...

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hosting cost problem becomes acceptable if the pub server is fast enough and hosting is cheap enough. Look at IRC.

The cost would be zero if residential ISPs issued static ipv6 and allowed servers.

The “allowing servers” part is a non issue.

By the time it becomes an issue, you’d already have more issues like the need of more bandwidth which would make you switch providers anyway.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#38
post #36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockstack is not based on scuttlebutt protocol, but when it comes to addressing id creation, user friendly onboarding probably needing a browser, etc "someone will have to build a browser-equivalent" we do have a browser that has a somewhat user friendly onboarding process: https://browser.blockstack.org/ If it is your first time, you will be asked to create an identity on Blockstack: https://docs.blockstack.org/cor…

Thanks for the pointers -- I'm pretty familiar with Blockstack and the Gaia ecosystem. I started playing around with it a couple of years ago, and registered [1] my ID in 2017 maybe? or 2018? I forget. Of course, it was much more bare bones then than now. But the owner address link doesn't work for me today [2]. Happy to give feedback directly on DebutApp, but my initial impressions of it when I tried were - it's a g…

Hey thank you for the feedback.

usernames expire after two years, so that could be it depending on when in 2017 you registered your username.

"One of my main questions with a lot of blockstack apps is exactly that - while they prove that something can be done, it's unclear to me how the next person who is going to google for "new blog" and try to pick one of squarespace, medium, or blogger - will use debutapp."

I think apps built with Blockstack like graphite and others: https://www.graphitedocs.com/ are gaining alot of popularity on the "normal" internet and getting recognition in places like producthunt, hackernoon etc: https://hackernoon.com/is-dweb-taking-off-a-glimpse-into-blo... , https://www.producthunt.com/posts/graphite etc etc

For now we are trying to point people to https://app.co/ to show the entire dapp ecosystem, not just blockstack based applications, but you can filter by protocol.

The next browser release will have blockstack apps from app.co dynamically loaded into the browser landing page as we know its a bit outdated based on the apps available now.

but yes there is alot more we can do, and alot of general awareness people can have on the internet. The idea is that applications like

blockusign: https://blockusign.co/signup.html

afari: https://www.afari.io/

graphite: https://www.graphitedocs.com/

sigle: https://www.sigle.io/

stealthy: https://www.stealthy.im/

travelstack: https://www.travelstack.club/

xor: https://xordrive.io/

diffuse: https://diffuse.sh/

dpages: https://dpage.io/editor/

(secret fave: https://blkbreakout.herokuapp.com/)

blockvault: https://blockvault.site/

and others listed on app.co, are also searchable on the mainstream internet, and advertised not as exclusively apart of the "new internet" but advertised based on the user value they provide that many centralised apps do as well.

"I'm curious about the host-able node comment. Who is this one click deploy targeted at? and what is the incentive for folks to do it today?" Making gaia hubs easy for users to host supports the idea that if they want to its not hosted by someone else/ a big cloud provider/another company etc, despite the api supporting they decide who has write access to their data/can delete if they want to, etc. It also allows them to host on their own server, or another cloud if they want to.

The incentive is mostly there in that already some applications are hosting gaia hubs for users and charging them for it, so there is an opportunity to make money.

In the future, we see companies dedicated to hosting gaia hubs for users and charging for it, not just applications, and you can see there are many parallel companies doing the same with IPFS type protocols like filecoin, golem computing for example (now lead by the previous founder of QubesOs, which says alot that she would leave her own operating system after a decade to focus on something like this). There is definitely money to be made in this space, I'm just a big believer in despite all of this, still making it easy for users to host their own on their own machine, a rasberry pi or something like Digital Ocean's one click deploy marketplace if they so choose to be wholly consistent with the idea that users can own their own data, manage the gaia hub themselves but not have to be an "anarchist sysadmin" skill level to do so. The incentive there right now is that Digital Ocean is also paying for 5months of one click deploy marketplace droplet hosting ($5/mo). That's something we are working on, but yes, there is definitely an economic incentive here..

The blockstack explorer actually went through some internal infrastuctural changes just this week. We are aware this is an issue and working on it. Will get back to you when you can expect faster response times for this. I would say end of not this coming week but next week, but will get back to your with more detail.

Re: Three protocols and a future of the decentralized internet

#39

Another P2P protocol that wasn't mentioned, that is already powering 2M people across Internet Archive, d.tube (decentralized YouTube), notabug.io (P2P reddit) and others is https://github.com/amark/gun (mine). I find it interesting how people mention file stores (IPFS/DAT) a lot more than databases (SSB/GUN). Distributed file stores have been around for a long time, and are not inherently useful for creating Google/…

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