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Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

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Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#151

Post by arcticbull »

ALittleLight wrote: post #130
arcticbull wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s the crux of my point. Yes of course it’s optional to make a movie with the White House in it. It’s optional to use war footage to report on the war. It’s optional to interview officials in your coverage. However if you don’t, nobody’s going to pay attention so your only choice in effect is to play ball. Who would watch media coverage of the war from the only network without footage/boots on the ground/…

Either you have misunderstood something or I have. You absolutely do not need government permission to show the White House or to show war footage. You need government permission to get to use their hardware for free. If I want b-roll of the White House I can just walk over there and record or buy some online. I don't have to ask anybody anything and the government doesn't get to see my script. If I want tanks or pla…

Sorry if I was unclear I was typing in a hurry before takeoff. Yes you can use B footage, etc. What you won’t get is access to embedding in units, you’ll get called on last if at all to ask questions and you won’t get interviews or other access if you don’t play ball. All combined it puts you at a big disadvantage compared to those who tow the line.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#152

Post by wildermuthn »

Everyone wants to have an opinion, and to publish said opinion, before they have any justification for an opinion. We’ve seen this over and over again, from both the left and the right, and yet it remains a blind-spot.

Recall the MAGA kids who brutalized the peaceful Native American. Recall Trump directly ordering Cohen to lie to congress. Recall any story where in the rush to gain clicks, everyone jumped to ill-informed conclusions.

The problem is not an idealogical press. That is capitalism at work. American history reveals muckracking as the norm rather than the exception.

The problem is the speed at which this now occurs. The true driver of ‘clicks’ is the astonishing efficiency of forming and disseminating opinions that stoke ideological mobs, mobs which are no longer limited by geography or synchronicity.

I’ve long believed that the only solution to a truth-based press is to replace opinion with primary sources. Now that there are networked cameras on every corner and in every pocket, this shouldn’t be far off. However, the advent of deep-fakes certainly throws a twist into this story.

Ultimately, those of us who value reason and logic should form our beliefs slowly, relying on primary sources as available. Although ideology and unreasonable conclusions dominate American politics, there is no reason for us to do the same. There is no urgency to form a conclusion here, unless your livelihood depends on publishing stories that will drive traffic.

Spending any mental energy on this, at the present moment, is a waste of time. The report will be out soon enough, and that will be the time to even entertain making judgments. More likely than not, however, the report will lead to more questions than answers. At least for those who value knowing the truth over making a buck.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#153

Post by dTal »

overwhelm wrote: post #118
dTal wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... That's 496 citations and a warning "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably". In other words, there's overwhelming evidence that Russia interfered. Like, not even a question. Suggesting it's a made-up media frenzy is just... alternate universe.

The length of an article proves nothing about the truth of its contents.

The article is not the source of truth. The article is simply a collection of facts. A very large number of externally sourced and undisputed facts. Facts like "On December 29, 2016, the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) released an unclassified report[91] that gave new technical details regarding methods used by Russian intelligence services for affecting the U.S. election, government, political organizations and private sector.", to pick one virtually at random.

I'm not pointing to the length of the article or the number of citations as direct support - I'm simply showing how overwhelmingly the burden of proof is on the person claiming it's all made up. To suggest that there was no Russian election interference of any sort is on par with moon landing denial. Literally nobody seriously asserts that - not even Trump! (Not anymore, anyway). That bears repeating, if you think Russians didn't interfere with the 2016 presidential election, you have a weaker grasp of reality than Donald Trump. It's frightening post-truth wingnuttery.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/87841331318880256... https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/96520255620400332...?

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#154

Post by thatoneuser »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #134

My wife and I are liberal, but I have been complaining to her for a half a year that it seemed like the news media was making a lot of opinionated or unsubstantiated statements as if they were 100% true (infinitely true!). I think you know what I mean, when a news hour host makes statements in a tone of voice that implies there is no doubt about something. For me, the main theme of this article was “None of this has…

I've been saying there's basically no difference now between many of the major left news outlets and straight up tabloids. Just more polishing. It's really sad. Rather than having rational discourse that could set up a strong 2020 dem pres bid, all anyone can talk about is how bad trump is. All exposure is good exposure.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#155

Post by thatoneuser »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #128

[flagged]

It's because you're literally pulling a conclusion out of thin air to claim there's something of a trump related "Russia problem". It's not a bot conspiracy - that's lazy propaganda that's been spoon fed to people who dislike trump. There are just a lot of people on HN who see through it, and it's telling that rather than discuss the possibility that trump is clean, you just call them trolls and bots.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#156

Post by thatoneuser »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #147
thatoneuser wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is propaganda. This is what this thread is about.

In what way? It's absolutely true. It's not possible to reason away the criminality of the people Trump appointed or selected. I'm genuinely unsure of what would convince Matt Taibbi that Russiagate was a dud with so many indictments and such a consequential SCO investigation.

The point of mueller was to determine if Trump worked with Russia to steal a us presidential election. I may just not know the evidence so I'm asking in total honesty - what indictments demonstrate that happened?

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#157

Post by CookieMon »

SEJeff wrote: post #79
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because to have collusion you need to have multiple parties colluding. They haven't indicted anymore Russians or any other members of the Trump campaign, and no existing indictment has been due to collusion. So even though the President can't be indicted, the indication that no other indictments means that collusion is not a part of the report. There may be other offenses that Trump have committed, but that is even M…

Yet there could be sealed indictments that have yet to be unsealed. In fact, every single one of Mueller's indictments were originally sealed. Who's to say there aren't others that he's handed off to various federal prosecutors like at SDNY or EVDA? Assuming that Mueller has entirely cleared the president (or anyone around him) at this point is about as pointless as proving he's about to be arrested in the Oval Offic…

FWIW NBC reported no sealed indictments, they're citing "a senior U.S. law enforcement official".

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/special-counsel-mueller-has-...

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#158

Post by CookieMon »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #150
sonnyblarney wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is so heavily polarized that 'I assume they will assume'. I would hope on a forum such as HN people wouldn't make assumptions ... but I think we all have an assumptive instinct on some level. Intersectional issues (race/gender/class), some things about China, obviously religion - they're all so loaded it's hard to have a discussion. Finally, even though I have very nuanced views of Trump, and don't think he'…

> Politics is so heavily polarized that 'I assume they will assume'. [...] Intersectional issues (race/gender/class), some things about China, obviously religion - they're all so loaded it's hard to have a discussion Agreed... That said, there are people who are happy to have an open discussion without judging everything on the basis of "friend" / "enemy". I wonder if there's a forum, online or offline, where ideas a…

> I wonder if there's a forum...

There was one https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/02/22/rip-culture-war-thread... Various satellite forums of slatestarcodex have grown and are around, and only the original Culture War thread is gone. That whole group seems to be politically mixed and at least partially vaccinated against the dangers of framing political disagreements in terms of tribes and dehumanising the outgroup/opponent.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#160

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

CptFribble wrote: post #148
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a scandal if it isn't true? And you're right, Obama never had anything in this scope, it's worse, because people died from things he perpetuated. 1) Fast and Furious: Continued program that caused a border agent to be murdered with one of the many guns the US sold to the cartels. 2) Benghazi: We all know this disaster that killed 4 Americans. Severely understaffed embassy that should have never even been there.…

I must take issue with two of your points: 2) The State Dept. approved some requests for security upgrades, and denied others. If they had approved everything, would it have stopped the attacks? There's no way to know. Placing blame on Hillary or Obama specifically is problematic at best. 3) Before the revolution in 1979 the Iranian govt signed an arms contract with the US and paid money into a US account. Then the r…

2) The problem wasn't stopping it, it was fighting it back. They were too understaffed to make a defense. Given how long they held out with what they had is a good indicator that they could have repelled it with more defenses. Air support would have sufficed.

3) Fair enough, but how it was done that wasn't appropriate.

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