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Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

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Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#141

Post by zaroth »

auntienomen wrote: post #112
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your first point, it's easy to fall into a perjury trap. Noone in the campaign was indicted for conspiracy, they were indicted for lying. Planning to build a hotel in a country is not a crime, even if it's Russia. It's smoke in the scheme of things, but if he's not guilty, then it's perfectly okay. Meeting with a Russian ambassador is not a crime, setting up a backchannel is not a crime. Many campaigns have done s…

Meeting with the Russian ambassador can indeed be a crime under the Logan Act. Private citizens don't get to make foreign policy, and none of Trump's team was in office at that point.

Tell that to John Kerry! Transitions teams do this every single time, as an absolute necessity.

It would be asinine to hand over the reigns of power as a cold start.

The Logan Act nonsense is a perfect example of the media’s abject failure.

Then when Kerry went to Iran to actively controvene and usurp Trump’s policies — where was the media citing the Logan act then?

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#142

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

IOT_Apprentice wrote: post #136
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because to have collusion you need to have multiple parties colluding. They haven't indicted anymore Russians or any other members of the Trump campaign, and no existing indictment has been due to collusion. So even though the President can't be indicted, the indication that no other indictments means that collusion is not a part of the report. There may be other offenses that Trump have committed, but that is even M…

Collusion, like "Crooked Hillary" are terms Trump used courtesy of Cambridge Analytica to control the narrative. The investigation was to look for coordination and links between Russia and the Trump campaign, along with obstruction of justice as well as "any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation."

Collusion is a euphemism, my point was noone was indicted for coordinating with the campaign, and noone was indicted in the campaign other than for tax fraud and processing crimes.

If you can point out who exactly you think coordinated with Trump that'd be great.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#144

Post by sonnyblarney »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #115
sonnyblarney wrote: post #13

Disclosure: I deeply loathe Trump, and I think he is unfit for office; very glad to see Mueller investigation initiated, because there was a lot of smoke and it needed to happen. But the author is very correct. A 'free press' is the 5th estate - an important part of civil society. ... but it only works if they have integrity. Over the last two years it has become clear how narrow and biased they have become in their…

I'm curious, do you think without your disclosure, people would have read your post differently? Occasionally (both online and in real life) I feel that whatever I say tends to be interpreted in the binary: "are you with us or against us". This makes it hard to have a thoughtful discussion. Clarifying that I'm loyal to whatever cause the audience supports helps to some degree.

Politics is so heavily polarized that 'I assume they will assume'.

I would hope on a forum such as HN people wouldn't make assumptions ... but I think we all have an assumptive instinct on some level.

Intersectional issues (race/gender/class), some things about China, obviously religion - they're all so loaded it's hard to have a discussion.

Finally, even though I have very nuanced views of Trump, and don't think he's 'all bad' - and my own politics are utterly not on the American spectrum ... I just don't want to be associated with him frankly.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#145

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

mellow-lake-day wrote: post #74
pmoriarty wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the reason Trump got elected was that the media just couldn't shut up about him. They're his best friends. If anything, all this media coverage shows is that the US mainstream media is now spectacularly ineffective and irrelevant. They might have brought down Nixon, but they can't bring down Trump. Everybody on all sides already has their minds made up, and they only read the news for entertainment, to confirm t…

The media also chose to spread the emails stolen by Russian intelligence instead of covering the Hollywood access tapes.

What were you watching, they were completely silent on the emails, even though a lot of them were really salacious. They reiterated they were illegally obtained and wouldn't show them, or press anyone who wouldn't comment on them, but then they displayed leaks during the Trump Administration almost everyday...

The Hollywood access tape was covered for weeks, and it's not exactly political. We've all said things in private that would make us look bad if they were recorded and displayed to the world. He apologized for it.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#146

Post by thatoneuser »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #87
leereeves wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gist of the news is: Trump never had anything similar in scope either. It was a fiction, invented by the Democrats and the media.

How many Obama campaign managers did they indict? How many Obama National Security Advisors did they indict and force to resign over Russian ties? How many times did Obama deny that the Russians attacked American interests during an election only to be rebut by the FBI with a string of foreign indictments?

This is propaganda. This is what this thread is about.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#147

Post by akhilcacharya »

thatoneuser wrote: post #146
akhilcacharya wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Obama campaign managers did they indict? How many Obama National Security Advisors did they indict and force to resign over Russian ties? How many times did Obama deny that the Russians attacked American interests during an election only to be rebut by the FBI with a string of foreign indictments?

This is propaganda. This is what this thread is about.

In what way? It's absolutely true. It's not possible to reason away the criminality of the people Trump appointed or selected.

I'm genuinely unsure of what would convince Matt Taibbi that Russiagate was a dud with so many indictments and such a consequential SCO investigation.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#148

Post by CptFribble »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #27
akhilcacharya wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is covering one of the biggest scandals in modern American politics malpractice? Obama never had anything similar in scope over 8 years.

Is it a scandal if it isn't true? And you're right, Obama never had anything in this scope, it's worse, because people died from things he perpetuated. 1) Fast and Furious: Continued program that caused a border agent to be murdered with one of the many guns the US sold to the cartels. 2) Benghazi: We all know this disaster that killed 4 Americans. Severely understaffed embassy that should have never even been there.…

I must take issue with two of your points:

2) The State Dept. approved some requests for security upgrades, and denied others. If they had approved everything, would it have stopped the attacks? There's no way to know. Placing blame on Hillary or Obama specifically is problematic at best.

3) Before the revolution in 1979 the Iranian govt signed an arms contract with the US and paid money into a US account. Then the revolution happened and the equipment was never delivered. The cash flown over was just them getting their money back out of that account, with 30+ years of interest.

The rest I either know nothing about, or are too general to get into here.

For what it's worth, I'm not just an Obama apologist. I also think a lot of stuff he did was problematic, especially the unaccountable drone campaigns, and especially Anwar Al-Alwaki and his son, which should have been considered a major scandal.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#149

Post by giardini »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #87
leereeves wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gist of the news is: Trump never had anything similar in scope either. It was a fiction, invented by the Democrats and the media.

How many Obama campaign managers did they indict? How many Obama National Security Advisors did they indict and force to resign over Russian ties? How many times did Obama deny that the Russians attacked American interests during an election only to be rebut by the FBI with a string of foreign indictments?

That will likely be examined somewhat further by the Inspector General's report which hasn't yet been released but promises to be the real bombshell.

Re: Russiagate is a death-blow for the reputation of the American news media

#150

Post by _cs2017_ »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #144
_cs2017_ wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, do you think without your disclosure, people would have read your post differently? Occasionally (both online and in real life) I feel that whatever I say tends to be interpreted in the binary: "are you with us or against us". This makes it hard to have a thoughtful discussion. Clarifying that I'm loyal to whatever cause the audience supports helps to some degree.

Politics is so heavily polarized that 'I assume they will assume'. I would hope on a forum such as HN people wouldn't make assumptions ... but I think we all have an assumptive instinct on some level. Intersectional issues (race/gender/class), some things about China, obviously religion - they're all so loaded it's hard to have a discussion. Finally, even though I have very nuanced views of Trump, and don't think he'…

> Politics is so heavily polarized that 'I assume they will assume'. [...] Intersectional issues (race/gender/class), some things about China, obviously religion - they're all so loaded it's hard to have a discussion

Agreed...

That said, there are people who are happy to have an open discussion without judging everything on the basis of "friend" / "enemy". I wonder if there's a forum, online or offline, where ideas are shared and discussed in good faith.

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