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Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

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Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#141

Post by Barrin92 »

sampo wrote: post #128
Barrin92 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has an overwhelmingly domestic economy and export driven global infrastructure development isn't exactly an American strength. In so far as the US influences European or Asian countries it appears to be mostly by military, cultural or political means. Up until now the US, economically, has mostly functioned as a consumer of European and Asian goods, so it is hard to imagine how they could offer an alternative…

> The US has an overwhelmingly domestic economy Of the 10 of the World's most valuable companies, 8 are American. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon and Facebook didn't get there by concentrating only to American markets.

Actually they sort of do. Domestic / foreign revenue is about split for Facebook and Microsoft, and Amazon makes twice as much in NA than outside of it, tendency increasing.

And most importantly, even those global companies constitute only a fraction of the entire US economy. Most of the US economy is not organised in publicly traded, globalized, businesses.

The bottom line is, as can be seen in the American export and import balance, a strong tendency to consume global goods rather than sell them. The reverse is true for China. That's why China pursues an expansionist economic foreign policy, whereas American economic policy is largely divorced from its foreign politics.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#142

Post by nradov »

ssijak wrote: post #115
dghughes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Sri Lanka where nothing has been done except environmental disaster. Now Sri Lanka owes its soul, and land, to China. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/world/asia/sri-lanka-chin... Montenegro has a bridge to nowhere built by Chinese workers instead of locals. Billions owed to China for a useless bridge. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-silkroad-europe-mon... It seems to be China "invading" countries…

I’ll take useless bridge any day over so many destroyed bridges that US left in montenenegro in yugoslavia bombings and wars elsewere in the world.

Technically the bombing was done by NATO. The US forces which participated were just one of several militaries acting under overall NATO command. Ironically Montenegro is now a NATO member.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#143

Post by nintendo95 »

cdmckay wrote: post #19
purple-again wrote: post #2

The weakness of centralized planning is what allowed the western way of life to dominate in a world where technology hampered its effectiveness. In this new world we may need to accept that our individualistic nature has become that very same weakness that dooms our way of life in the great game of life.

If we are individualistic, then why do we organize ourselves into communities instead of living as lone wolves? The truth is that humans are social creatures that prefer the company and support of other humans. The way we spread around the globe as hunter gatherers was through cooperation and mutual support. A lone wolf cannot support themselves if they are hurt, or sick, or lack a skill, or simply didn’t save enough…

Both wolves and humans are social creatures. They key ingredient is highly hierarchical structures. Where individuals compete among themselves for the position in the group. And capitalism is just reflection of that in human societies.

First social creatures that "discovered" hierarchies were lobsters about 300 milion years ago. This is before even trees existed. Very long time from the evolutionary perspective, i.e. they do provide advantage to species that employ it.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#144

Post by chessturk »

thetechlead wrote: post #50
vicpara wrote: post #33

Centralised planning will beat democratised decision making if they indeed manage to respond in time to a changing environment. The advancements in tech and communication allows you today to be more effective than ever. Think about global corporations with offices around the world. They are effectively operating under a centralised model and they do it very well. What China learnt in the past 4 decades was how to man…

Some people still think China's economy is a centralized one. No it's not. It's a mix of state owned and private - the former really good at long-term planning for national strategic goals, maintaining economic stability and building infrastructures with no short term returns, AND vibrating private sectors that drive innovation and employment. How they keep the balance of the two is mythical to many. However the Chin…

My understanding is that the Chinese economy is an "artificial" Free Market economy to bridge the gap between Maoism and here-to unforseen Communist Utopia. Hegelian/classical Marxist thinking requires a society to pass through a capitalist phase in order to industrialize to the point that the populace begins demanding socialist concessions.

It was my understanding that the Post-Mao creation of free-market-like conditions in China was an admission by Communist leadership that the Hegelian model of history could not be short circuited (as Lenin and Mao attempted), and capitalist style economics was required to industrialize, but that the capitalist economics was a temporary solution.

I could be mistaken though, and I'm curious why you thought they arrived there by luck.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#145

Post by discscoober »

dillondoyle wrote: post #137

I feel it's impossible to participate in a balanced discussion with the C word comes up on hacker news and elsewhere online (China). I was going to reply to a couple comments but retrained myself because I feel like there's no point arguing with a shill or what feels like organized, state funded astro turfing. I do NOT advocate the US getting into this game tit/tat through manipulating/commenting on US based media bu…

You sound like you’re around AOC’s age perhaps?

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#146

Post by kanjus »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #125
oh_sigh wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't migrants shipped around proportionately to the various EU countries?

Because (a) borders in Schengen are open so migrants who get shipped can move somewhere else without issue and (b) many EU countries have xenophobic governments at the helm which would prevent such a solution (just like they prevent being a migrant destination by treating them as inhumanly as possible).

Your (a) is untrue.

For one, borders are difficult for migrants to cross: trains and coaches near borders are often checked for migrants, some borders are under police surveillance (like between France/Italy), etc.

Second, Dublin agreements force migrants to apply for asylum in the first EU country that they give their fingerprints in (ie the one where they have their first encounter with police). Most migrants have fingerprints in Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Spain, ie the countries on the outskirts of Europe. So migrants can’t just walk to the country of their choice and claim asylum, as they will be “deported”, as a rule, to a country they explicitly don’t want to be in (Italy had high acceptance rates until recently but can offer no work, Hungary is known for extreme racism and violence against migrants, etc.)

Your (b) is on point though. Italy has been asking for a fairer distribution of migrants among the Member States for some time, but the most powerful Member States like their South/Eastern European moat a lot

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#147

Post by discscoober »

coldtea wrote: post #126
adventured wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not an ally of China. It cooperates with China to maintain peaceful military and political relations in Asia and it has vast trade with China. There's a dramatic, fundamental difference between being an ally and being a global competitor that you try to get along with (ie try not to go to war with as you collide repeatedly on matters of perceived national interest). Britain, France, Germany, Poland, Canada,…

> There's a dramatic, fundamental difference Yes, the difference being "when it suits the US it's OK, when it suits somebody else, it's bad".

Raging horesh#%%#^^. China is built on thievery and finally after decades of escalating theft US is looking like we’re being more aggressive, maybe. The chinese theft has reached levels of being clear acts of war and its time to treat it as such. The hacking and corporate spy rates have escalated 3x in the last 3 years. Most arent aware how serious it is. As chinese leave for the US they are coached to thieve, and when they bring back good data they are paid to start a company.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#148

Post by discscoober »

outwebbyyou wrote: post #80
coliveira wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has allied itself with China since the 80s...

US declared China as main competitor last year (as declared by VP pence), enforced high tariffs as punishment on China, and the US military is on high alert with China as the main enemy focus for years to come. Because they realized Xi Jing Ping the dictator was a paradigm shift. Europe is now just doing the paradigm shift, urging its member states to act as a unified front against China. Something that Canada, Austr…

See my comment above as reply to your bull. Plain amd simpl, thievery is the root of China’s coming misfortune. The piper always come calling. Their theft around the world has hit mind boggling rates. The result of that for them I think is going to be a lot worse than people think.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#149

Post by aaron695 »

dillondoyle wrote: post #137

I feel it's impossible to participate in a balanced discussion with the C word comes up on hacker news and elsewhere online (China). I was going to reply to a couple comments but retrained myself because I feel like there's no point arguing with a shill or what feels like organized, state funded astro turfing. I do NOT advocate the US getting into this game tit/tat through manipulating/commenting on US based media bu…

Put your money down. Which account is "state funded astro turfing" in this thread?

Else I'd go with you're just being plain old racist. Occam's razor, highly complex accounts, which you won't name, to fool HN or your biases coming through.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#150

Post by HillaryBriss »

pmontra wrote: post #133
HillaryBriss wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one model for how it's going to work out is the US experience of stronger economic integration with China over the last 30 years. the EU should simply study in great detail the pros/cons of that history. the analogy seems useful: * China has the more united and disciplined central government, while the US had a more federalized, decentralized government, approximately like the EU. * China has based its economic growt…

Actually China, the biggest exporter, exports for less than 20% of its GDP. Nearly all of the major countries depend more on their exports except Japan and the USA. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

But the model of economic growth China pursued in the last couple of decades is export driven. This assessment is from 2011:

Much of China’s remarkable growth between 1978 and 2000 can be explained by the reform. But the more recent and faster growth in the last decade has been mainly driven by exports.

https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2011/02/27/chinas-export-led-g...

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