Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#131

Post by westiseast » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #116

There is some information that usually won't show up in BBC but discussed in other places which might worth some attention for HNers: Some part of the cooperation is on development of Africa which probabley is part of China's current plan or even part of OBOR. We know that Italy is major victim of the wave of iligle immigrants accross the ocean. An inductrialized and stable Africa is also in the interest of Italy. Th…

I’m not sure that passes a basic sniff test.

It’s much more likely after decades of poor economic management and a weak economy, Italy is willing to sacrifice some principles/accept some risk in return for Chinese investment in ports and businesses. China has invested heavily in Greece as well for the same reasons.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#132

Post by oblio » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #78

throwawawua4234 wrote: post #16

Is there any knowledge on why East Asian Tiger economies do so well with state backing ? The major takeaway from the 'Princes of Yen' by Richard Werner is about how Japan soared from a destroyed country to an economic powerhouse, before being brought down by the bankers at the BOJ, ostensibly to change the system from a 'state backed economy' to a US-styled one. Ditto with the Asian tigers in Thailand, S Korea etc. S…

More state backing is great when starting out on the path because it’s relatively straightforward; provide education, infrastructure and stability and your country will take care of itself. You can even goose the figures a bit by boosting a select few companies to be your champions. The problem is that as you get richer and move up the value chain, you start requiring industry that is more creative, or entirely new c…

Samsung is a world leader in display tech, memory tech and probably many other things. Slow and sluggish, you say? :)

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#133

Post by pmontra » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #102

cl42 wrote: post #7

> The European Union is also worried about unfair competition from Chinese companies, which are controlled by the Chinese government and benefit from the state’s financial backing. EU leaders in Brussels are preparing a strategy to counter the growing influence of China, which they describe as a “systemic rival.” Most of the Western articles I've read express concern over Italy's involvement in the BRI. However, I am…

one model for how it's going to work out is the US experience of stronger economic integration with China over the last 30 years. the EU should simply study in great detail the pros/cons of that history. the analogy seems useful: * China has the more united and disciplined central government, while the US had a more federalized, decentralized government, approximately like the EU. * China has based its economic growt…

Actually China, the biggest exporter, exports for less than 20% of its GDP. Nearly all of the major countries depend more on their exports except Japan and the USA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#134

Post by abc-xyz » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #121

devoply wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a collective effort to put pressure on China to politically reform.

Isn't that up to its citizens? Was there a collective effort to get YOUR country to "politically reform"? Would you appreciate one?

If my country was engaged in sending Muslims to concentration camps, medical genocide (organ harvesting), and all sorts of human rights abuses, then I would very much appreciate if there was a collective effort to get my country to politically reform. Why wouldn't you appreciate that?

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#135

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #124

BurningFrog wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany only "forced" Greece in the sense that they didn't pay Greece's debts for them.

> Germany only "forced" Greece in the sense that they didn't pay Greece's debts for them. Germany (and France) also knowingly gave Greece lots of loans, when it was obvious to everyone that Greece will never be able to pay them all back.

Germany the country, or private german banks?

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#136

Post by merpnderp » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #63

merpnderp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange take. I’m socialist and communist countries, the rich make their money off government corruption. In the US rhe rich make their money off providing value to people in the free market.

When I look at a list of billionaires, for most of them I don't see any kind of value that they generate to society. In fact you will even find criminals like Donald Trump.

I don’t believe you’ve actually looked up a list of billionaires then.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#137

Post by dillondoyle » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

I feel it's impossible to participate in a balanced discussion with the C word comes up on hacker news and elsewhere online (China). I was going to reply to a couple comments but retrained myself because I feel like there's no point arguing with a shill or what feels like organized, state funded astro turfing.

I do NOT advocate the US getting into this game tit/tat through manipulating/commenting on US based media but I wonder what other technical solutions there are to counter what feels like a massive communications operation to shift all digital discussions concerning China; without throwing the baby out with the bathwater

This thread - like every other which involves China - is rife with straw man arguments and a lot of 'so what' false equivalencies.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#138

Post by coliveira » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 11:46 PM UTC

_ptgt wrote: post #82

Gpetrium wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea looks good on paper, it will be important to keep an eye on the underlying actions that are made to ensure it is not used for nefarious reasons. This part is specially difficult when transparency is lacking.

Right, I don't quite understand why there's so much secrecy around OBOR projects if the CCP really believes these deals are a partly altruistic and fully mutually beneficial agreement. It would seem to be be in their interest to publicize the terms if that were the case. Especially given the CCP's documented history with bribing foreign leaders to agree to similar deals.

Did they bribe the previous US presidents to sign business deals during the last 30 years? I think it is entirely inappropriate to think that briberies are the only reason to do business with China.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#139

Post by sampo » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 11:48 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #135

sampo wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany only "forced" Greece in the sense that they didn't pay Greece's debts for them. Germany (and France) also knowingly gave Greece lots of loans, when it was obvious to everyone that Greece will never be able to pay them all back.

Germany the country, or private german banks?

German banks.

Re: Italy Joins China's New Silk Road Project

#140

Post by coliveira » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 11:54 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #93

coliveira wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has allied itself with China since the 80s...

The US is not an ally of China. It cooperates with China to maintain peaceful military and political relations in Asia and it has vast trade with China. There's a dramatic, fundamental difference between being an ally and being a global competitor that you try to get along with (ie try not to go to war with as you collide repeatedly on matters of perceived national interest). Britain, France, Germany, Poland, Canada,…

The difference between being an "ally" of US or not only has to do with its current economic interests. Until recently China was viewed as a big friend. And the US only decided to do something against it when it became clear that China would not allow US companies to control their economy. In the list of US "friends" we see dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and Thailand, and countries with numerous human rights violations such as the Philippines. This is not a great track record for a country that purports to be the champion of democracy around the world.