Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness • Hacker News Board

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#61

Post by i_am_proteus » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #50

i_am_proteus wrote: post #28

These are my personal observations: When I first moved to the SF Bay area, I was surprised by the amount of visible homelessness and by the number of service economy workers who drove nearly two hours to and from work. I also had my first experiences with the "campuses" of major technology companies, where money was made hand-over-fist. I think the recent widening income gap is a natural consequence of the technology…

Information, professional, and business services collectively account for less than 25% of Bay Area workers. At least 75% of the people currently affording lives here are not in tech. There’s a big difference in what happens in the housing units that are up for grabs vs. the city as a whole. http://www.vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/jobs-industry

From your link: the fastest growing industries are information, professional, and business services.

And it is the growing industries that drive the market rate for housing. Someone who bought in to the market via purchase or rent-regulated lease five or ten years ago has a significantly lower cost of living than someone entering the market today.

Exempli gratia: (in California) If you're living in a $2 million house that you bought for $400 thousand, you might not be able to afford to sell and buy something else at a similar price due to the tax code.

Exempli gratia: If you're living in a rent-regulated apartment that's now leased 40% under market value, if you lose your lease for any reason, you may not be able to afford the market rate. And your landlord has greater incentive to get you out of the unit.

Thus the well-tenured school teacher making $100 thousand per annum[0] can afford to live comfortably, but when this teacher retires, a qualified replacement offered a salary of $66 thousand[1] may choose to live and work elsewhere.

[0]http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20...

[1]ibid

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#62

Post by Zamicol » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #51

cronix wrote: post #7

KOMO TV in Seattle recently (last Sunday) did a big report on this called "Seattle is Dying." Down south in Portland, it's the same thing. Down in San Francisco...same thing. Down further, same thing. This is spreading quite quickly, all over in the big cities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b53uiRFq4Ds

For a different point of view: https://www.realchangenews.org/2019/03/20/komo-asserts-seatt...

I read that and I don't see an alternative presented, just criticism.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#63

Post by benatkin » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #48

I echo others' sentiments here, that these problems will not be fixed unless people from all sides stop trying to 'win' on ideological grounds, stop trying to gaslight each other, stop trying to demonize, and simply evaluate the situation for what it really is. This requires making hard decisions, selecting the right incentives/disincentives, accepting that no solution is perfect, and instituting transparent well-aud…

The thrust of your argument seems to be "lots of homeless people don't belong here, and if we figure out who belongs here and who doesn't, and help them accordingly, we can improve the situation dramatically". Not a great opinion to have if you want to work with homeless people. They aren't bad people, and they aren't stupid people either, and will see the condescension from a mile away. So even if your solutions are pragmatic, I don't see how a city government could implement them without a backlash that would make their efforts ineffective.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#64

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

newnewpdro wrote: post #9

mnm1 wrote: post #8

What is the problem with people living in tents? Why are they forced to dismantle and kicked out by cops? It makes no sense. How can Americans be so cruel to the most vulnerable, most helpless people in our society that they won't even let them live in tents and insist on disrupting their lives constantly? What kind of sick society does this? Is it just so rich assholes don't have to look at them and be reminded that…

It's not just rich assholes, a surprising majority of the population want all evidence of poverty out of sight in their lives. Santa Cruz made it illegal just to sleep visibly in public in an attempt to criminalize homelessness so they could hide the problem.

It's not about criminalizing poverty. It's about trespassing and having campers at your house 24/7/365 who are criminals. It's an awful drain to your quality of life.

Stop demonizing people for not thinking it's "progressive" to let people crap on the streets and shoot up in public. I voted for Bernie, but I live in SF and I see how much money we waste by not addressing the problem directly and in more common sense ways. Just allowing criminals to take over the city and make everyone else feel unsafe is just not fair.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#65

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

sidesentists wrote: post #4

This sort of thing is why I've started to wonder if employment rate is really all that meaningful as a general socioeconomic index. It is what it is, of course, but I'm not sure it's use as a proxy for well-being is really justified.

[deleted]

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#66

Post by freshcatch_ » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #25

jlangenauer wrote: post #22

If, in the Soviet Union, people had to live in tents while working, most sensible people would blame the economic system in place. Yet in capitalist America...?

I would blame are current economic system, which is pretty damn far from Free market Capitalism as over the last 80 or so years we have instituted a wide range of socialist inspired programs and regulations that have largely stopped and in some cases rescinded the gains against poverty that a actual free market system brings. if you look at any economic data you will see Poverty rates where Plummeting until the "War…

Free market capitalism has never existed and will never exist.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#67

Post by dgzl » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

I'm from a small town in Oregon that sees a lot of nomadic traveling folk, either homeless or lifestyle (the PCT comes through the area, for instance), and the town is generally pretty receptive of these people. Growing up I would hang out and spend time with them, just chatting and playing music and enjoying the area. I carried that to adulthood and I now live in Portland, where the homeless problem is quite severe.

Last weekend, looking at food carts downtown, a man who looked quite disheveled and in shock starts trying to talk with me. He tells me he just got off the bus from the hospital, and that morning he had been attacked with a knife by a homeless woman with gang affiliation. He showed me his wounds and hospital bracelet, and I decided to spend some time with him and try calming him down.

Before long he tells me that he's only been homeless a few months, and before that he was collecting enough SSI to sustain himself. He says a while back he had spent time in jail and been released, but the jail never put that in the manifest. Apparently (someone) looked into his record and it looked like he had escaped, causing him grief that suspended his SSI payments, in turn putting him on the street. He was expecting payments to continue soon.

We talked about things like honor, culture, respect, family. Eventually I let slip that I was a software engineer and he started telling me that he used to really be into Linux, and his old work had him using BSD and Unix, and we eventually started talking about physics which he was much more knowledgeable than I. After I thought his shock was gone and feeling a little better, I bought him some food to help him through the evening.

That same night I had conversation with a different homeless man, who was more rude and rather creepy. He talked a lot about how the homeless are being fed human meat, and how addictive it is.

---

A friend who's from a wealthy Asian-dominated town in California tells me there's a service where people will drive around and pick up homeless people and give them a free ride to the neighboring town. The first gentleman in my story above told me a similar thing: Las Vegas was apparently giving free bus tickets to the homeless to come to Oregon, because our homeless services are top-tier.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#68

Post by freshcatch_ » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #64

newnewpdro wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just rich assholes, a surprising majority of the population want all evidence of poverty out of sight in their lives. Santa Cruz made it illegal just to sleep visibly in public in an attempt to criminalize homelessness so they could hide the problem.

It's not about criminalizing poverty. It's about trespassing and having campers at your house 24/7/365 who are criminals. It's an awful drain to your quality of life. Stop demonizing people for not thinking it's "progressive" to let people crap on the streets and shoot up in public. I voted for Bernie, but I live in SF and I see how much money we waste by not addressing the problem directly and in more common sense w…

Might want to update your user name, Diogenes slept rough

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#69

Post by ams6110 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #48

I echo others' sentiments here, that these problems will not be fixed unless people from all sides stop trying to 'win' on ideological grounds, stop trying to gaslight each other, stop trying to demonize, and simply evaluate the situation for what it really is. This requires making hard decisions, selecting the right incentives/disincentives, accepting that no solution is perfect, and instituting transparent well-aud…

Pretty good. I disagree on long term residents. Just as nobody is entitled to live wherever they want regardless of whether they can afford it, nobody is entitled to live in the same place forever if they can't afford it. The history of America is people and families moving to where the work is. Expecting to live your whole life in one place often isn't realistic.

Re: Homeless, living in a tent and employed: The changing face of homelessness

#70

Post by trimbo » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #28

These are my personal observations: When I first moved to the SF Bay area, I was surprised by the amount of visible homelessness and by the number of service economy workers who drove nearly two hours to and from work. I also had my first experiences with the "campuses" of major technology companies, where money was made hand-over-fist. I think the recent widening income gap is a natural consequence of the technology…

> But that relatively small number is still enough to dominate the economy of a major metropolitan area... So the rise in visible homelessness is perhaps the expected result

I'd imagine the expected result is that prices increase to support higher wages for service workers... which they actually have. Just one example: a take-out salad for lunch now costs $15 in San Francisco. The place I'm thinking of has huge line at lunch, so business seems extremely good.

Regional economic prosperity being a _cause_ of homelessness makes no sense to me, unless that economic prosperity for the few took away every business opportunity for everyone around them (e.g.: robot manufacturer replaces all jobs in all industries). The people making money are going to have to spend money.

So I wonder if it has more to do with other societal/economic changes going on that have changed how money is spent:

* Could it have something to do with Amazon/Home Depot/big box stores impacting local retailers?

* Could it have something to do with local manufacturing jobs going overseas?

* Could it have something to do with the 1099 gig economy work making it infeasible for companies to employ people full time (in that type of gig work), and driving down income for those jobs?

* Could it have something to do with the massive increase in drug use[1]?

Or all of the above? Or more reasons?

Also, the fact that it's happening in a period of very low unemployment does not bode well.

ps - Firefighters get down-payment assistance in San Francisco. I personally know a couple who live near me, thanks to this. https://sfmohcd.org/resources-first-responders

[1] - https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Number-of-people-shoo...